Restricted Georgia house bill would protect Confederate, Revolutionary War monuments

BillO

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Quinton, VA.
Yes I'm pretty sure my ancestors were right. I read your first sentence and started thinking modern politics and started giggling.
 

CSA Expat

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Kevin, isn't he South sufficiently demonized for you? Isn't it enough to know that the noble and virtuous North "stamped out he vintage where he grapes of wrath are stored?" Must every discussion of the war begin with, "But, of course, you must understand he South was wrong because they had slaves?" Can't a monument to Confederate soldiers just be to honor their courage and fortitude? Must we always be urged to wear he hair shirt in EVERY conversation?

I'm sorry but it tires me to be constantly lectured.
I'll second that thought with one correction, not urged, forced!
 

CMWinkler

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Blame your and my Confederate Southern ancestors, someone was sure not thinking ahead how they were going to be perceived and what their descendants were going to have to deal with in the future.
What I posted, I had to deal with in trying to make heads or tails of that time period. I stopped trying to build a house on top of the landfill of slavery, that my ancestors were involved with. I refuse to mask it over anymore.
Lectured? I was bringing up the truth, something that those kids in that camp will need to know about, because the stench of it will come up through the landfill of history as they try to construct their history houses, so-to-speak.

You were not there, you didn't/don't own slaves, what is it to you what I say, unless you believe your and my ancestors were right?

Kevin Dally

I don't know, Kevin, I suppose it's your holier than thou smug self righteous tone that does it. Slavery was what it was. It, or fighting over its continuance, were the cause of the war, but it was not he whole war.
 

CSA Today

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I thought that the South had it you couldn't secede in THEIR Constitution? If I'm wrong, please show me where it says they can secede.

Kevin Dally

I’m not familiar with the clause in the Confederate Constitution you refer to; if you would point it out I would be better able to comment. In any case, I don’t see where the Confederate Constitution has anything to do with the right of secession from the United States based on the US constitution.

"Since the Constitution doesn’t forbid the states to secede, the North found it necessary to violate the Constitution in order to suppress Southern independence. Lincoln was forced to usurp legislative powers by raising troops and money and by suspending the writ of habeas corpus; when Chief Justice Roger Taney ruled such acts unconstitutional, Lincoln wrote an order for Taney’s arrest! He never followed through on that, but he did illegally arrest 31 antiwar members of the Maryland legislature and install a puppet government. He went on to crush freedom of speech and press throughout the North. Such was Lincoln’s idea of 'preserving the Constitution' and government of the people, by the people, for the people.”
Joseph Sobran
 

rpkennedy

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Who, in your opinion, should they turn for correct education?

"A people separated from their heritage are easily persuaded. If you erase the symbols of a people's heritage, you erase their public identity and memory, and then you can persuade them in whatever you want."

Karl Marx

We've all seen what they are teaching. They minimize the role of slavery in secession in favor of "states rights", talk about "black Confederates" with little supporting evidence again in order to minimize slavery in the South, talk about the "War of Northern Aggression" and espousing the idea that secession was legal and a right at the time, talk about Lincoln's tyranny, etc.

The simple fact is that it's a story that makes them feel good about what their ancestors fought for but is not historically accurate. All one has to do is look at the records from the war period to know that this is all bunk. The thing that is said that really grinds my gears is that the winners wrote the history in the postbellum era. This ignores the entire historiograpy of the Civil War up to the 1960s.

R
 

rpkennedy

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Kevin, isn't he South sufficiently demonized for you? Isn't it enough to know that the noble and virtuous North "stamped out he vintage where he grapes of wrath are stored?" Must every discussion of the war begin with, "But, of course, you must understand he South was wrong because they had slaves?" Can't a monument to Confederate soldiers just be to honor their courage and fortitude? Must we always be urged to wear he hair shirt in EVERY conversation?

I'm sorry but it tires me to be constantly lectured.

There is no question they fought bravely and nobly, for the most part. But their cause was a complete dumpster fire. It's not wrong to celebrate their courage and devotion but you can't separate a soldier from the cause for which he fought.

R
 

CSA Today

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Location
Laurinburg NC
We've all seen what they are teaching. They minimize the role of slavery in secession in favor of "states rights", talk about "black Confederates" with little supporting evidence again in order to minimize slavery in the South, talk about the "War of Northern Aggression" and espousing the idea that secession was legal and a right at the time, talk about Lincoln's tyranny, etc.

The simple fact is that it's a story that makes them feel good about what their ancestors fought for but is not historically accurate. All one has to do is look at the records from the war period to know that this is all bunk. The thing that is said that really grinds my gears is that the winners wrote the history in the postbellum era. This ignores the entire historiograpy of the Civil War up to the 1960s.

R

When you say: “We've all seen what they are teaching” and “they minimize slavery in favor of state rights”, you are too vague to be coherent -- You still haven’t indicated whom we should turn to for these eternal historical truths as you see them.

“The North, having won the war on the battlefield, immediately set out to win it again and consolidate victory on the printed page. A flood of books appeared, and the South took umbrage at most of them. A new invasion was on, and the South must meet words with words – but words based on historical facts.”
E. Merton Coulter
 

CMWinkler

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There is no question they fought bravely and nobly, for the most part. But their cause was a complete dumpster fire. It's not wrong to celebrate their courage and devotion but you can't separate a soldier from the cause for which he fought.

R

As is often the case, I completely disagree.
 

Tin cup

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Location
Texas
Someone is going to have to carefully explain to HOW you separate the Confederate soldier from the cause of the Confederacy.
It can't be done!
Put up all the monuments and flags you want, but the cause was what it was.

Kevin Dally
 

rpkennedy

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When you say: “We've all seen what they are teaching” and “they minimize slavery in favor of state rights”, you are too vague to be coherent -- You still haven’t indicated whom we should turn to for these eternal historical truths as you see them.

“The North, having won the war on the battlefield, immediately set out to win it again and consolidate victory on the printed page. A flood of books appeared, and the South took umbrage at most of them. A new invasion was on, and the South must meet words with words – but words based on historical facts.”
E. Merton Coulter

How many times have we seen "Lost Cause" ideology described on this site alone? Heck, unionblue even has his patented yawn on this issue. These kinds of groups talk about states' rights as if there was some other right beyond slavery that the South was concerned with. In the end, we've discussed this before and nothing I say is going to change your mind. You can hold your opinions but don't teach children historical fallacies.

And Merton Coulter clearly didn't know what he was talking about in this respect since the Lost Cause point of view was pretty much the only one for a hundred years after the war.

R
 

jgoodguy

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Someone is going to have to carefully explain to HOW you separate the Confederate soldier from the cause of the Confederacy.
It can't be done!
Put up all the monuments and flags you want, but the cause was what it was.

Kevin Dally

Someone is going to have to carefully explain to HOW you separate the Confederate soldier from the cause of the Confederacy.

OK

The South Was My Country

How can a soldier be proud of the country he defends while at the same time opposed to the cause he is fighting for? John S. Mosby, the renowned Confederate partisan leader, dealt with this moral dilemma years after his war ended. Mosby despised slavery, and believed the South had seceded to protect this peculiar institution. Yet he fought to defend the practice as he felt his patriotic duty to his nation outweighed all other factors. After the war, Mosby befriended General Grant and joined the Republican Party, but held firm to his belief that, “I am not ashamed of having fought on the side of slavery – a soldier fights for his country – right or wronghe is not responsible for the political merits of the course he fights in …The South was my country.” Mosby remained proud of having fought for the Confederacy, even though he disliked an essential part of what the war had stood for.

Mosby’s attitude was not shared by many of his peers. In the wake of Reconstruction a growing number of Southerners began to argue that protecting slavery had not been the real cause of the war, and some even claimed that slavery was in fact a just institution – a notion that persists even today. These ideas spread and grew into the “Lost Cause” movement, a romantic vision of the South which would eventually gain vast exposure from the popularity of films including “Birth of a Nation” and “Gone with the Wind.” In this letter (GLC03921.21) Mosby attacks men who supported this mindset with all the fury of a great warrior. Was Mosby correct in faulting these men for their views, when they believed they were only trying to protect the Confederacy he defended so bravely? Was he a hypocrite to condemn slavery while taking pride in fighting in its defense? Mosby expressed a complex and fascinating set of beliefs about the Civil War, at a time when its history was just beginning to be written.

Entire letter at: Mosby, John S. (1833-1916) to Sam Chapman.
 

jgoodguy

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How many times have we seen "Lost Cause" ideology described on this site alone? Heck, unionblue even has his patented yawn on this issue. These kinds of groups talk about states' rights as if there was some other right beyond slavery that the South was concerned with. In the end, we've discussed this before and nothing I say is going to change your mind. You can hold your opinions but don't teach children historical fallacies.

And Merton Coulter clearly didn't know what he was talking about in this respect since the Lost Cause point of view was pretty much the only one for a hundred years after the war.

R


IMHO the Lost Cause was the way the South survived the loss of the ACW as a people(white people). Its purpose is long dead. The current interest is a political reaction by a folks in a second Lost Cause as political power is lost and transitions to other groups of folks.
 

rpkennedy

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IMHO the Lost Cause was the way the South survived the loss of the ACW as a people(white people). Its purpose is long dead. The current interest is a political reaction by a folks in a second Lost Cause as political power is lost and transitions to other groups of folks.

I agree with you completely, j.

R
 

Tin cup

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Barrycdog

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Buford, Georgia
I see a lot of debate here about the proposed law and I wanted to share some comments.

1. This law is in Georgia where I am at, So no matter what anyone's views on states rights are unless you can vote here you cant do anything about it.

2. Soldiers fought for what they believed in and if you have any question about it you can start looking at the Tennessee Civil War Questionnaire of Civil War soldiers for specific questions about slavery, states rights or whatever straight from the soldiers mouth.

3. No cause is lost until you give up. The difference is time. You don't have slavery as an issue anymore unless you happen to remember the 4 million sex slaves and slaves held by immigration here in America where people take immigrants make them work at their home and threaten to send them back due to illegal immigration so those individuals are trapped in slavery. The grand total world wide is around 27 to 28 million. One can only estimate how much is in America. The good news is you cant point South and blame a Confederate Veteran. Death offers one last parting blow.

4. You all have your hero's. Some of you love John Brown and that's great. If you support abolition you may need to consider the 27 million folks needing help right now rather than try to browbeat the Confederacy. I would suggest thinking about rugs made in India and specifically those made by slave labor. Not buying rice from places that use slave labor. Maybe even create forum here that lists products made by slave labor. We can all shift our spending habits and make people aware. Also list some sites like Amnesty international and laws that are being presented to stop slavery in this country and others that someone can rally or support. I cant do a lot but I can sign a petition or contact a my rep.

5. Here is the most important part. You need to stop interfering with my plans for world domination. These distractions are becoming quite annoying and I am trying to work my mojo here. So if you could just quiet down and comply peacefully I can get some quality work done here.

Thank you for your cooperation
Barrycdog
lolcat.jpg
 

jgoodguy

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I appreciate your posting that letter by Mosby...
The Confederacy WAS the politician, civilian, and the Confederate soldier. Together they were going to see the Confederacy thru, to protect a way of life...slavery.

Kevin Dally

Like most human endeavors, the CSA was a muddle of ambitions, passions, emotions, politics, good, evil and greed. The sum of it all was a slave nation with a slave labor ideology. A nation as anathema to modern capitalism as was communism and fascism. It and its protagonists are long dead. Its legacy a batch of dead monuments, moved out of the way when inconvenient by loving, unloving or uncaring hands and a gaggle of people and organizations, ununited in their view of history or purpose.
 

jgoodguy

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-:- A Mime -:-
is a terrible thing...
Don’t feed the Mime
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I see a lot of debate here about the proposed law and I wanted to share some comments.

1. This law is in Georgia where I am at, So no matter what anyone's views on states rights are unless you can vote here you cant do anything about it.

2. Soldiers fought for what they believed in and if you have any question about it you can start looking at the Tennessee Civil War Questionnaire of Civil War soldiers for specific questions about slavery, states rights or whatever straight from the soldiers mouth.

3. No cause is lost until you give up. The difference is time. You don't have slavery as an issue anymore unless you happen to remember the 4 million sex slaves and slaves held by immigration here in America where people take immigrants make them work at their home and threaten to send them back due to illegal immigration so those individuals are trapped in slavery. The grand total world wide is around 27 to 28 million. One can only estimate how much is in America. The good news is you cant point South and blame a Confederate Veteran. Death offers one last parting blow.

4. You all have your hero's. Some of you love John Brown and that's great. If you support abolition you may need to consider the 27 million folks needing help right now rather than try to browbeat the Confederacy. I would suggest thinking about rugs made in India and specifically those made by slave labor. Not buying rice from places that use slave labor. Maybe even create forum here that lists products made by slave labor. We can all shift our spending habits and make people aware. Also list some sites like Amnesty international and laws that are being presented to stop slavery in this country and others that someone can rally or support. I cant do a lot but I can sign a petition or contact a my rep.

5. Here is the most important part. You need to stop interfering with my plans for world domination. These distractions are becoming quite annoying and I am trying to work my mojo here. So if you could just quiet down and comply peacefully I can get some quality work done here.

Thank you for your cooperatin
Barrycdog
View attachment 10789

1. There is that pesky first amendment that allows all sort of folks to comment.

2. No not at all. Soldiers fight for what their superior officers say fight for and those superior officers up the line to the political leadership. If they don't they get jailed, shot or hung for disobeying orders. They may have joined the CSA armed forces for many reasons, but that is not what they fight for.

3. No Confederate Vets to point to. They are all dead. If the pointing makes you uncomfortable, point out that the South's slaves made the South the richest part of the nation and as a separate nation one of the richest in the world with a legal and constitution capital asset that was not socially deviant or illegal until long after the ACW got started.



5.
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8MkG8uG0ado6r0xAAYnL1aqinnUyZsSCsPcLQZUaD0e6JKmuC0n_BjlA.jpg
 

Tin cup

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1. There is that pesky first amendment that allows all sort of folks to comment.

2. No not at all. Soldiers fight for what their superior officers say fight for and those superior officers up the line to the political leadership. If they don't they get jailed, shot or hung for disobeying orders. They may have joined the CSA armed forces for many reasons, but that is not what they fight for.

3. No Confederate Vets to point to. They are all dead. If the pointing makes you uncomfortable, point out that the South's slaves made the South the richest part of the nation and as a separate nation one of the richest in the world with a legal and constitution capital asset that was not socially deviant or illegal until long after the ACW got started.



5.
images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT8MkG8uG0ado6r0xAAYnL1aqinnUyZsSCsPcLQZUaD0e6JKmuC0n_BjlA.jpg
Wait, wait.. you forgot the Brain's"if I could reach you, I would hurt you" quote!:rofl:

Kevin Dally
 
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