General Abercrombie, St. Peter's Church, White House Landing And Two Dead Horses?

JPK Huson 1863

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 14, 2012
Location
Central Pennsylvania
white house landing church1.JPG

Brig. General John Joseph Abercrombie- white beard, smack in the middle of the group, at St. Peter's wildly historic church, White House landing, on the Pamunkey River, Virginia. A young civilian, a black man, guessing employed by the army, sits on the ground with ' baggage ' the topic of this photo. It should be! Look at it!

But but but..... why?
white house landing church2.JPG

Do you see them, bottom right? Seemed unlikely, officers posing with dead horses. And very ' iew '. Dead horses all the heck all over this war. Why in a line of baggage, what looks to be a tent, and a boot sticking out of the tent?

white house landing church3.JPG

Yep. Dead. Horses. If I were not such a shy person, I might add the one on the left looks like it has a large, plaid, homespun hat, tied with a ribbon. But that would be even more silly than General Patrick posing with two dead horses, a boot and a tent, in front of an historical church in Virginia.

white house landing church4.JPG

Boot and the other nameless objects?


White House Landing on the Pamunkey River, 1862. Brigadier General John J. Abercrombie, launched into his second war, commands troops of the First Corp's Second Brigade. A soldier's diary entry at the time of this photo describes them as ' some Ohio soldiers'.

St. Peter's Church is part of historically significant " White House ", Virginia, at the time of this photo not yet burned to the ground. Filled with George and Mary Custis Washington antiques and relics, Mary Custis Lee had been forced to abandon it, leaving a note requesting it be protected. It was. Well, until withdrawal orders were somehow misinterpreted- and it was torched. St. Peter's Episcopal Church may or may not be- according to who one believes- where Father and Mother America were married.

You can't just post this without some background. General Abercrombie and officers at St. Peter's Church, White House Landing, Virginia. We're familiar with the LoC and National Archives photograph. But why, in Heaven's name, are these men posing with dead horses? Appears to be sabers stuck in the ground behind each horse, too- making it more macabre, if it could be

We've seen dead horses. On their sides, stiffened legs in profile, distinctive monuments to war's cruel demands on these loveliest of beasts. I hadn't really looked at Abercrombie's various baggage- and did. A ' horsey ' person all my life, boy, you cannot mistake this horrifying image- and then another, more grotesque, next to it. Goodness. But why? Does anyone have any idea, please?

white house landing church 5.JPG

I'm sorry but this gentleman looks a little bemused, too. He's looking up past a saddle an perhaps another tent?

white house landing church diff.JPG

Another LoC image of St. Peter's, from the Peninsular Campaign, sand horses. Thankfully.
 
Last edited:
Yep. Dead. Horses. If I were not such a shy person, I might add the one on the left looks like it has a large, plaid, homespun hat, tied with a ribbon. But that would be even more silly than General Patrick posing with two dead horses... A ' horsey ' person all my life, boy, you cannot mistake this horrifying image- and then another, more grotesque, next to it.

I'm not seeing dead horses. You know if you have to work that hard to see something that weird there's a good possiblity it's not that thing. I see a bunch of typical officer-tent type supplies on the lawn, hastily covered by struck tent canvas (perhaps because it looked like rain?). I've seen many similar hasty scenes like this at reenactments. The black and the white private are dutifully waiting for the command to finish folding up the tents to load them with the gear onto wagons (or could instead be waiting to put up the tents in the case of having just arrived and having unloaded the gear from wagons).

As for the "dead horses," I'd guess they are merely bunched-up fur rugs or blankets, not uncommon in the CW era, something officers might well have in their tents.

But this is fun, thanks for posting.
 
Last edited:
I dont see a dead horse either; I see what resembles a horse's head but I do not think it is one. I'd venture to guess these are Mrs. Lee's personal belongings she spoke of? What other reason to photograph baggage?
 
Interesting photo:unsure:
 
I see what looks like a dead horse with a bonnet on but, in perspective with the size of the men behind it, the dead horse had to be a very tiny horse indeed and the one next to it smaller still. I think we have an illusion here, created, by chance, with some piled up "stuff". Actually, the "horse with the hat" looks more like a mule--facially and if so, then the perspective is really off.
 
Those are some great images. Not sure about the dead horses. At times it looks like a very dried up dead hose, at other times it looks like something else entirely. Either way they are good images, and I like the uniforms pictured. Thank you for the thread.
 
To be honest, my first impression was that it was one of Lowe's observation balloons, complete with sand bags as ballast and ready to get filled and started and one of the gentlemen would be ready to man it ...
But when I read about the dead horses, I thought this might be one, or maybe rather a mule ... if that thing pointing to the upper right corner of the clip is an ear ...
upload_2017-10-19_11-27-33.png
 
I do see what appears to be a horse snout below the bonnet, but who knows? If this is not horses, then it could be contraband from the Lee house, things like rolled up carpets, which seemed to be a prime target of pillagers, as they could be shipped home. If it is pillaged goods, the men are photographing the deed to flaunt in Mrs. Lee's face, as if saying, "You don't give the orders, Mrs. Lee!"
 
The interior of the church was defaced and used as a stable by Union troops during the war. Therefore, I would certainly guess the objects in the foreground could be pillaged goods as stated above.
 
Brig. General John Joseph Abercrombie- white beard, smack in the middle of the group, at St. Peter's wildly historic church, White House landing, on the Pamunkey River, Virginia. A young civilian, a black man, guessing employed by the army, sits on the ground with ' baggage ' the topic of this photo. It should be! Look at it!

... White House Landing on the Pamunkey River, 1862. Brigadier General John J. Abercrombie, launched into his second war, commands troops of the First Corp's Second Brigade. A soldier's diary entry at the time of this photo describes them as ' some Ohio soldiers'...

I don't know about any "dead horses", BUT... I don't see any General Abercrombie either; the man with the white beard ISN'T HIM! However, this IS Union Maj. Gen. Edwin Vose Sumner, at the time commanding McClellan's Second Corps, which he would continue to lead through Antietam and until he was promoted to command one of Burnside's Grand Divisions at Fredericksburg, after which he was shunted aside in Joe Hooker's reorganization of the army prior to Chancellorsville. I previously posted this picture of the REAL Abercrombie, with Kate Chase, daughter of Treasury Secretary Salmon P. Chase:

Kate_Chase_Sprague_and_General_Abercrombie.jpg


Here's a couple of more familiar studio photos of Sumner, as a brigadier at right and major general, left; I think you can tell best from the photo at right that it's Sumner in your picture:

Edwin_Vose_Sumner_1.png
 
To look at the scene in an ordinary way, there are three officer wall tents on a company street, per standard camp set-up. The tent on the end far right is already set up. You can only see it's tensioned rope and stake in the corner of the photo. The two remaining tents are not erected, each merely laid over its contents on the ground. Notice there are six officers, two per tent. Let's work at identifying what looks (to me) to be usual items found in officer's tents:
upload_2017-10-19_14-16-11.png


(a) officers field desk, legs not installed (b) wall tent not erected (c) saddle over a box (d) saddle pack (e) folding camp stool (f) saddle on ground, open stirrups showing (g) saddle in tack bag, covered-style stirrups showing, then


upload_2017-10-19_14-21-5.png

(h) another wall tent not erected (i) officer's desk, legs not mounted (j)cot with fur blanket or rug on it and other items, including a box on top - and notice a folded chair just left under the tarp (k)another cot with fur blanket or rug - a tent rope tensioner showing on top (L) wool blanket on cot (m) erected tent stakes and rope of a 3rd tent on the street
 
Last edited:
Is it Sumner? I said Abercrombie because I could place him at White House Landing- plus the photo looks more like Abercrombie than Sumner, sorry, it just does. I' have the Kate photo, too. Sumner was more gaunt with less aggressive stance.
white house landing church aber 1.JPG

From the diary of Corp. Timothy J. Regan, although there's tons of official military bio from Abercrombie's various Wiki's, etc.


Sticking with ' dead horse '. Been around horses all my life. Dead horse, mangled dead horse next door. If there's a reason officers pose with their gear, with sabers or swords stuck in the ground behind it, it'd be good to know. Were not swords a little too important to just skewer into the ground like that? Gentleman posing far right, sitting on the ground is in charge of a saddle.
white house landing church 5 saddle.jpg


white house landing church4.JPG

When I was riding, that would have been a boot, for riding on a horse- well, outdated since tops weren't cool any more but a boot. I was not cool. My tops are in the attic.

Also, I do understand an army has gear ready to set up- that's how it moves. White House Landing had a sea of tents on the Pamunkey- were they not folded neatly, first? Wasn't gear packed away, not spread all over the ground? I've camped- a lot. It'd drive me insane to put one up from that condition.

Dead horse, honest- was hoping someone who knows this stuff would have a guess as to the macabre nature of the photo.
white house landing church horseR.jpg
 
Last edited:
While I agree it "looks" like a horse head somewhat, what reason could there possibly be for a horse's head to be mixed in with the rest of the baggage? If you look at objectively, where the horse's nostril would be, it looks like the fringe of the carpet or blanket or what ever it is laying over the corner of the folding cot or chair, and the corner of the chair forms the nostril. I dont think there is a macabre nature to the photo, I believe it is an illusion. The swords do not appear to be skewered into the ground either; they are still in their sheaths at the officer's side and the men's hands are resting on the hafts, its just a pose for the photo.
 
Last edited:
Dead horse, honest- was hoping someone who knows this stuff would have a guess as to the macabre nature of the photo.

As already pointed out, the cots could not support the weight of a dead horse. The left thing is clearly setting on a cot. Best you can do is to suppose the "horse" was gutted except for a complete head, that is if you still see a dead horse head.

You know, in one way, horse blankets or rugs are actually horse corpses, yes? Horse blankets were common back in the day, these looking more like horse hide than buffalo robes.
 
Back
Top