Gen. Stuart's "Disobedience to Orders"

bmorekid

Banned
Joined
Mar 17, 2010
Location
gresham
I have read that a number of Gen. Lee's field-grade officers urged Gen. Lee to court-martial Gen. Stuart for what was considered by some to be his deliberate abscence at Gettysburg. I have even read that at least one officer urged Lee to have Stuart shot!! A little harsh, that but i'm wondering what some of you would have thought about Stuart at the time, say, the June 30th or the 1st of July
 
Something to the effect of:
"Shouldn't we have heard something from him by now?"

I can imagine legitimate reasons for him to be delayed, but I would be concerned by the lack of word from him. That could mean anything, not all of it without blame for him.

I generally have a good opinion of him as a cavalryman, but concern over whether this is indeed legitimate delay would also be there. With the benefit of information I wouldn't have had as say, an officer on Longstreet's staff, I'm fairly sure he did just about the best he could, but without that information I would lean towards suspicion. Stuart going off on a raid and forgetting about catching up with the main army would surprise me less than the truth.
 
I personally feel that the criticism of Stuart is unfair. Lee's orders allowed him to make his ride around the Union army. Lee had cavalry present with the main army but he simply didn't use them. Plus, if Lee felt he couldn't function properly without Stuart's actual presence then he shouldn't have allowed himself to be sucked into a major battle at Gettysburg in which the enemy chose the ground. With the benefit of hindsight we know how Stuart's actions affected the outcome of the campaign but based upon what he knew at the time and what his orders actually stated I think he's unfairly been made into a scapegoat.
 
I agree. But it would be hard to tell without the knowledge we have (not hindsight, just knowledge not available to the main army) whether Stuart was legitimately delayed or not.

He did the best he could, which was very good. Errorless? No, but no one in the Army of Northern Virginia performed flawlessly in that campaign, except maybe most of the common soldiers

Certainly not his fault that Lee failed to utilize the other cavalry around. Jenkins's brigade wasn't very good, but it was used very poorly at the battle. Not a sign making me feel confident Lee or his subordinates were thinking about what to do with horsemen.
 
Stuart going off on a raid and forgetting about catching up with the main army would surprise me less than the truth.
It would be wildly out of character for him to have done that. Unbelievably out of character. In the realm of never having happened before. I don't know why that would be the first thing to come to mind. Personally, by 6/30 or 7/1, I would be wondering if Stuart was dead and his command destroyed, particularly coming so close on the heels of Jackson's death. That is what would be on my mind.

Anyone who thinks Stuart disobeyed orders has clearly never read the orders, because he fulfilled them to the letter. I've always wondered what these people think Stuart was doing all that time. I hear vague things like "glory jaunt" etc, but no one ever wants to get specific.

As for Lee... if you want someone to be with you, don't issue orders sending them away.
 
Iron Duke, i tend to think your analysis is pretty spot-on. I think the book about it was "Plenty of Blame to Go Around," or words to that effect. Thanks all...rick, oh, BTW, i'm going horse-back riding early this afternoon if the rain holds off...think i'll pretend to be Gen. Stuart and order my Dog around as if he were an entire brigade. Can't grow near-enough the beard that JEB had, though.
 
It would be wildly out of character for him to have done that. Unbelievably out of character. In the realm of never having happened before. I don't know why that would be the first thing to come to mind.

I don't either. Stuart's raids in the past were conducted as "pick a smallish detachment of good men..." kind of thing. I don't know the details of the planning, but I do know enough on the actual raids that they speak of Stuart's careful planning rather than his "I'm a Jolly Cavalier Fear-less and Care-free" imagery.

But it comes to mind anyway. It doesn't help in this (Gettysburg) context that Morgan would demonstrate exactly what those kind (the irresponsible kind) are like, which produces imagery floating around my head that has nothing to do with Stuart but influences my easily biased brain anyway. Stuart would no doubt be (justly) offended at the comparison, but that's not the point.

Personally, by 6/30 or 7/1, I would be wondering if Stuart was dead and his command destroyed, particularly coming so close on the heels of Jackson's death. That is what would be on my mind.

Its certainly one of the more plausible answers to "why haven't we heard from him?".

Anyone who thinks Stuart disobeyed orders has clearly never read the orders, because he fulfilled them to the letter. I've always wondered what these people think Stuart was doing all that time. I hear vague things like "glory jaunt" etc, but no one ever wants to get specific.

As for Lee... if you want someone to be with you, don't issue orders sending them away.

He did take more time than he "should" have, if one pretends that his orders weren't ridiculously optimistic about the timetable. Even without the delays, Stuart should have realistically arrived closer to the 1st of July than earlier, in my opinion.

On being a "glory jaunt" or the like, here's what Gettysburg: The Confederate High Tide (by Time Life Books) says that kind of implies that it was (as they call it: "Jeb Stuart's Untimely Ride"):

"Stuart's 4,800 men could not shoot their way through Hancock's large force. He could prudently ride back westward and maintain contact with Robet E. Lee's northbound army, or he could ride around Hancock. Characteristically, Stuart decided to follow the more daring course, taking his three brigades on a detour south and east before turning north. In doing so, he put two mountain ranges and the entire Federal army between himself and Lee's right flank."

The problem with that, which sounds truthful at first: "You will, however, be able to judge whether you can pass around their army without hindrance, doing them all the damage you can, and cross the river east of the mountains. In either case, after crossing the river, you must move on and feel the right of Ewell's troops, collecting information, provision, &c."

So the "characteristically, Stuart decided to follow the more daring course" creates an implication Stuart is choosing to err on the side of (unreasonable) boldness - where as his orders quite specifically authorize him to make such a decision as he sees fit. Meanwhile, he's expected to have a considerable distance between his troopers and the main army - though it might be argued he's also expected to link up with Ewell, that's not inconsistent with being much seperated from the other two corps of the Army of Northern Virginia.
 
Bmorekid, sir;

Which "sources" are you reading about the part of the field-grade officers urging General Lee to court-martial General J.E.B. Stuart?

Like to respond to the who said what about it rather than a vague suggestion. Sometimes the field officers are excellent and some may be ones with a bone to pick, e.g. in the case of Lt. General James Longstreet who was made like a scape goat for years -- and still.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf

Note: Stuart was known to have attended a funeral, had a bunch of prisoners that weighed him down as far as 'swift' movements, General Early didn't leave a messenger in the spot designated for Stuart to connect and catch up with so that cost time, in addition to the desired route was not possible and blocked. Colonel Mosby defends Stuart but in short shoots Stuart in the foot giving locations too far away from Lee's movements and his suggestions for a better route that really wasn't, etc.
 
Elannsar, sir;

To add to your post [Reference: #7] -- Where were Stuart's couriers? Certainly with the amount of men with him, he would have couriers to report back to General Lee eastward of his positions. If Lee could send out a patrol and locate him, certainly Stuart could have sent a patrol embedded with two or three couriers with the same message as to have at least one make it through. Telegraph messages to Confederate sympathisers along the way. Silence though was not normal.

If Stuart was killed, mortally wounded, prisoner of war--that would be explained. However, he wasn't and there was the problem. Too many delays of him physically and him not willing to have anybody deliver the messages to Lee other than him directly; from what I understand of Stuart's need to please Lee.

Just some personal opinions.

Respectfully submitted,
M. E. Wolf
 
One of the reasons I like the USCW is because people were as predictable then as they are now. The minute the anticipated appearance passed, people were passing judgement. Consider that 147 years have passed and we're still arguing about what ought to have been done.
 
Thanks for the question, Wolf. I named the book earlier. I think that i recall that one of the officers suggesting a court-martial was an aide to Gen Lee. A certain Col. whose name i can't recall right this minute and i don't have the time to look it up just now. In no way do i suppose to know who was really right or wrong. That's why i framed the initial thread partly in quotes. As i replied to the Iron Duke earlier, i think his thinking reflects much of the inner truth of the matter. And you don't have to call me sir though i appreciate it. I'm just a lousy private in here. You could order me shot.
 
It doesn't help in this (Gettysburg) context that Morgan would demonstrate exactly what those kind (the irresponsible kind) are like, which produces imagery floating around my head that has nothing to do with Stuart but influences my easily biased brain anyway. Stuart would no doubt be (justly) offended at the comparison, but that's not the point.
At some point late in 1863, I think, Stuart and Morgan met at some kind of official event in Richmond. A crowd gathered and Stuart made a nice speech about how some might consider them rivals but their only rivalry was how well they served their country, or something like that. I have the speech somewhere... can't recall just what he said but it was the typical classy thing you would expect him to say.

Morgan was inept as hell, IMO.

He did take more time than he "should" have, if one pretends that his orders weren't ridiculously optimistic about the timetable.
It was ridiculously optimistic, as was the entire campaign.

"Stuart's 4,800 men could not shoot their way through Hancock's large force. He could prudently ride back westward and maintain contact with Robet E. Lee's northbound army, or he could ride around Hancock. Characteristically, Stuart decided to follow the more daring course, taking his three brigades on a detour south and east before turning north. In doing so, he put two mountain ranges and the entire Federal army between himself and Lee's right flank."
To get to Ewell's flank through this back door method, he would have to ride through Longstreet's corps, through Hill's corps, and through Ewell's corps, with the attendant artillery and wagon trains. This would take almost as long as the eventual course actually wound up taking, and longer than it looked like it would take to simply go around. (If that makes sense)

So the "characteristically, Stuart decided to follow the more daring course" creates an implication Stuart is choosing to err on the side of (unreasonable) boldness - where as his orders quite specifically authorize him to make such a decision as he sees fit. Meanwhile, he's expected to have a considerable distance between his troopers and the main army - though it might be argued he's also expected to link up with Ewell, that's not inconsistent with being much seperated from the other two corps of the Army of Northern Virginia.
He was expected to do too much in too limited a time frame. He did it all, but not in that time frame.
 
Where were Stuart's couriers? Certainly with the amount of men with him, he would have couriers to report back to General Lee eastward of his positions. If Lee could send out a patrol and locate him, certainly Stuart could have sent a patrol embedded with two or three couriers with the same message as to have at least one make it through. Telegraph messages to Confederate sympathisers along the way. Silence though was not normal.
He did send couriers. One of his messages, that Hooker had begun moving, did not make it to Lee, but a copy made it to the war office in Richmond and is reprinted in A Rebel War Clerk's Diary. Stuart did not say in his report how many couriers were sent over the course of the whole ride, but at least one other trip was made (I want to say it was Andrew Venable), who did locate Lee on the afternoon of July 1. Lee sent this man and one of his own (separately) to tell Stuart to come to Gettysburg; these couriers found Stuart at Carlisle on the night of July 1.
 
At some point late in 1863, I think, Stuart and Morgan met at some kind of official event in Richmond. A crowd gathered and Stuart made a nice speech about how some might consider them rivals but their only rivalry was how well they served their country, or something like that. I have the speech somewhere... can't recall just what he said but it was the typical classy thing you would expect him to say.

Morgan was inept as hell, IMO.

Maybe worse. He seems to have done decently initially, but his famous '63 raid is one of the worst I've ever read about (in the Civil War or otherwise).

It was ridiculously optimistic, as was the entire campaign.

The only real way I can see it (the campaign) being realistic is with all out support by Davis. Anything less and I'm left seriously wondering about what Lee expected to accomplish. He clearly wanted (or was entirely willing) to face a major battle despite all the issues with fighting at Gettysburg, and I don't think that was for good reason.

To get to Ewell's flank through this back door method, he would have to ride through Longstreet's corps, through Hill's corps, and through Ewell's corps, with the attendant artillery and wagon trains. This would take almost as long as the eventual course actually wound up taking, and longer than it looked like it would take to simply go around. (If that makes sense)

It does. But that's not clear in the way that book puts it, which thusly makes it look like his actual choice was less reasonable.

He was expected to do too much in too limited a time frame. He did it all, but not in that time frame.

Pretty much. I think I've said this before, but if the battle started a day or two later, he would be perfectly "on time" in any reasonable sense.

Still have to say I'd be worried. You never know with these things, and Stuart's eagerness for glory getting the better of him would be a concern of mine if I was with Lee.

After all, plenty of good men have gotten themselves in trouble for that.

But if anyone was a "glory hound", I would say it was Henry "I'm going to take my division in to pick a fight with an unknown force" Heth.

Daniel Sickles on the Union side just being...a rotten subordinate.
 
One of the reasons I like the USCW is because people were as predictable then as they are now. The minute the anticipated appearance passed, people were passing judgement. Consider that 147 years have passed and we're still arguing about what ought to have been done.
So effing true. But that's human nature.
 
And you don't have to call me sir though i appreciate it. I'm just a lousy private in here. You could order me shot.
Only if you don't show up on time.

By the way, it was Charles Marshall, Lee's military secretary, who made the asinine suggestion that Stuart be shot for disobedience to orders. That's surprising to me. One would expect Marshall to have been more familiar with what Stuart's orders were, since he wrote them.
 
So long as our judgments are based on facts, I think its fair. Finding out what those were can be remarkably difficult, particularly given those who made no effort to be honest but who wrote as if they did (coughEarlycough).
 
K Hale said:
By the way, it was Charles Marshall, Lee's military secretary, who made the asinine suggestion that Stuart be shot for disobedience to orders. That's surprising to me. One would expect Marshall to have been more familiar with what Stuart's orders were, since he wrote them.

The only explaination I can think of is Marshall must have believed Stuart could have arrived sooner but chose to "joy ride" instead of catching up with Lee.

That and having felt the "you must move on and feel the right of Ewell's troops" was the only part of the instructions that mattered once Stuart crossed the Potomac.

I'm not sure how he'd feel that, but all the other possibilities either make less sense or require believing negatively of Marshall.
 
That and having felt the "you must move on and feel the right of Ewell's troops" was the only part of the instructions that mattered once Stuart crossed the Potomac.
But he did that.

I'm not sure how he'd feel that, but all the other possibilities either make less sense or require believing negatively of Marshall.
I'll take what's behind Door #2 there.

Marshall is not alone, however; Longstreet also conveniently forgot a few things too, like the fact that he 100% endorsed the whole thing in writing. I'm willing to cut Longstreet some slack, but Marshall is just being a moron.
 
But he did that.

Well, he did get some raiding in. I'm not saying that was wrong, just that Marshall could have concluded that Stuart was ignoring that part of the orders.

A mistake (on Marshall's part)? Yes. But as stated, the alternatives are even worse.

I'll take what's behind Door #2 there.

Marshall is not alone, however; Longstreet also conveniently forgot a few things too, like the fact that he 100% endorsed the whole thing in writing. I'm willing to cut Longstreet some slack, but Marshall is just being a moron.

Yeah. I'm prepared to accept that it might have made sense that Stuart erred on the side of daring/raiding. Beyond that, its just Stuart bashing at best.
 
Back
Top