French Model 1822 Chatellerault manufactured sabre, 1844 dated, ACW period or not?

drm2m

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Quebec
I am on a quest to try and find out whether this sabre might have had some CW history.

Shown below are some photos….if anyone has any wisdom on this subject I welcome your comments.

A Brief History of the Manufacture de Châtellerault


By Jean Binck​



http://users.skynet.be/euro-swords/chatellerault.htm

John Thillmann also has a section in his book " Civil War Cavalry & Artillery Sabres" on Chatellerault sabres during the ACW. (Pages 127-137.)

David

Anyone know about the scabbard markings?

ChatelleraultModel1822saber1844dated.jpg



(Shown below.)

Manuf re de Châtellerault 7= bre 1844
Abbreviation for: Manufacture Royale de Châtellerault , Septembre 1844
(King’s manufactory of Châtellerault, September 1844)

ChatelleraultModel1822with1844backblademarkings.jpg


DragmarkingonChatelleraualt1844datedsaber.jpg


MarkingonthroatofChatellerault1844datedsaberscabbard.jpg
 

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French M1822 Chatellerault dated 1844 saber…U.S. Civil War history or not?

I have been trying to find out if this French Chatellerault M1822, 1844 dated saber might have seen U.S.\ C.S. Civil war service.

Part of my quest has been to clarify the scabbard markings….which I “might” have done?
I was not expecting what I found.

The scabbard drag has what looks like C&C over F.

DragmarkingonChatelleraualt1844datedsaber.jpg


See 1860 in the table in the Klingenthal link below in the column under “forreau” (scabbard).

marqua25.gif



http://klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_coulaux.htm

The scabbard throat stamp looks like what is seen in the Klingenthal table above in the link.


I think what I have is a M1822 Chatellerault sabre September 1844 dated, in an 1860 vintage Klingental scabbard.

How this happened …I will never know.


Some historical background.

From what I understand Klingenthal originally a Government facility was folded into Chatellerault which was Government controlled in 1836 because of border issues with Germany.

Excerpt from Jean Binck’s work on this subject.

In 1836, the French government decided to rid itself of the Manufacture de Klingenthal. The period was the beginning of instability in Europe and the French ministry of war did not want to depend on a state manufacturing company so close to the borders of the country. Klingenthal was found to be exceedingly vulnerable. The production of regulation swords was removed to a more central geographic location: Châtellerault (near Poitier).

The Coulaux family bought the company premises and became owner of the Manufacture de Klingenthal. The company continued to produce swords and blades for private cuttlers and retailers as well as tools for agriculture (sickles etc.). No longer subjects to the quality control of the Artillery inspectors, some of these commercial blades were of poor quality.



Some thoughts from John Thillmann on the subject of French swords of this Pattern during the Civil War.

My opinion based on both observation of numbers of swords I have seen and that are definitely associated with the war as having strong collector attribution and or in museum collections with attribution by donation from the Turn of the 20th Century and secondly the prohibition by the French Govt of selling arsenal surplus to either side. So I strongly believe that French enlisted sabers were not used by either side with only the rare exception. And, I have not been able to actually identify an attributed French Arsenal Enlisted saber from the CW years.

Officers swords from the retail market were another story however as they were not government controlled. For example, both E. Lyon and F. Delacour who were Paris assemblers used blades primarily from Klingenthal but also used lesser quantities of blades from Chatellerault and they sold assembled swords to the US. I'm guessing that enterprising agents probably bought blades from Klingenthal and Chatellerault for the officers market and even sold these blades in the US. The Chatelleralult armory was a French Government Armory so they had to meet French orders first and only then could they sell on the private market and I'm guessing mainly to the French retailers to avoid the embargo. So we see fewer Chatellerault officers blades on swords with their inspection stamps from after 1860, whereas Klingenthal arsenal became a private arsenal and their blades with inspection stamps are often seen in the after 1860 time frame.
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Interesting and surprising things to be learned once you start doing some research on this stuff

David
 
It's entirely possible it is of the ACW, but is also possible it never saw North America in the 19th Century. Both the US & CS imported stocks of "obsolte" French sabres of a variety of vintages to include swords that dated back to Waterloo. The comment about officer/private purchase is particularly apt as I have a photo of the 3rd IA VI and the three officers each have a different blade, one German, one French and the third a US Arty Sabre. The mixing of sabre & scabbard is also not unusual as it is not an uncommon occurance to find a scabbard in better shape than the blade and if the dealer can get a better price for a sword w/ US ACW provenance than one w/out...

Interesting critter, regardless.
 
As mentioned the saber may or may not have any provenance to the ACW. There is simply no way to tell. The French 1822 saber was the nexus for the US M1840 Dragoon saber, aka the Wrist Breaker. Those were made and issued throughout the war by many Northern makers, copied by many Southern makers and imported in large number by both sides from the German swordsmiths throughout the war.
Dave Myrick
 
This is a response from Jean Binck to an email that I sent to him.

David,

You are right and I have another source showing that C&C was a marking used by Coulaux in Klingenthal during the Second Empire.
All we can say for sure is that this is a commercial officer sword made for the private market, it is not a French government owned weapon.
Regarding the possible connection with the US CW...well...it is not impossible but there are no evidences.
With reference to the photos, it is a Mle 1822 LINE cavalry sword (3 side branches, long slightly curved blade). Swords imported for the CW were usually Mle 1822 LIGHT cavalry swords (2 side branches and shorter more curved blade) which were closer to the US regulation Mle 1860. This being said, all is possible when officer swords are concerned.

Best regards,

Jean
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My question;

Jean,

In trying to determine the markings on this scabbard I found the Klingenthal Marks chart below.

http://klingenthal.chez.com/marquages_coulaux.htm

Under 1860 there appears C&C over F which I think is the drag marking on my scabbard.
The scabbard throat marking looks like some of the stamps in this link.

I started this quest trying to find out if this sword had possible U.S. CW history.

It appears to me that I have a Chatellerault 1844 dated sabre in an 1860 vintage Klingenthal scabbard.

Any thoughts you may have on this subject would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

David
 
This sword is an officers sabre, which means it's a private purchase sabre. It most likely has no ACW relation. The scabbard may simply be a replacement from the officers service time or just a later purchas to "complete the set" so to say.
 
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