- Joined
- Feb 20, 2005
- Location
- South of the North 40
The picture comes from College Hill Arsenal
Brazilian Light Minnie Rifle M1857 a Belgian copy of the P56 Enfield with French barrel bands & a Belgian rear sight. The US imported 5-6k of them.
Those were most likely actually made by Tanner & Cie, a Liege gunmaker. The "Tanner & Co" arms are Belgian copies of the French M1857. All the markings are standard for a Tanner & Cie with Belgian proofs.An oddball of the group...https://poulinantiques.hibid.com/lot/23431-16210-41037/tanner-and-co--belgium-rifle-musket-/
Receiving a contract from the Texas Military Board for arms for the State of Texas, Tanner & Company of Bastrop, Texas produced an estimated 264 Muskets.
These are found to be based on a cross of the 1840, and 1842 French style Muskets, mostly .69 caliber, a “back Lock”, or “Rear Action” style lock with Belgian proof marks, a unseasoned walnut stock, with Texas stars stamped, or carved into the wood near the butt plate.
It appears that Tanner & Co. rifles were made up of parts imported from Europe, coming most likely through Mexico.
Kevin Dally
The top arm is an Austrian Jeager, an excellent arm... when issued w/ the correct ammo of .55 instead of the .54. These were a common site on western theatre Cav. It's problems were the wrong ammo & a fragile rear sight.
The bottom arm is a French Rifle, good accuracy though in .71 they had a heavy recoil. Several Illinois Regiments were issued these as well as the Rifle Musket version, preferring them to the P53 they were replaced w/ M1861 series arms in 1864.
View attachment 10725 Pic courtesy of google
@Don Dixon , i have a question, you know what model they meant for "Chasseurs de Vincennes pattern rifle muskets"?
because it' a very difference Model ( 1837-1840-1865) I'm really interested on this news!
Those were most likely actually made by Tanner & Cie, a Liege gunmaker. The "Tanner & Co" arms are Belgian copies of the French M1857. All the markings are standard for a Tanner & Cie with Belgian proofs.
European Arms in the Civil War has a blurb about those arms.
@Don Dixon
I do not know all the French weapons sold and imported for the civil war, but here I publish all the images related to the 4 Carbine used by the "Chasseur de Vincennes".
You Don Dixon, and you of the forum, which you have so much experience, maybe you recognize the models used, so maybe we can find out what models were defined as "carbines Chasseur DE Vincennes"
Urrikane,
Since most of Sanford's Chasseurs de Vincennes purchases appear to have been current production, and were delivered incrementally, I have tended to assume - assumptions can be dangerous - that they were Model 1859s or perhaps 1853(T)s [probably with the Tige removed]. I know that both models are found, with Civil War provenance, in U.S. collections. But, across all the importers - North and South - descriptions of what was being imported are very generic (i.e., "French" [generally they meant French models produced at Liege], "Belgian," "Austrian," "German," "Tower," etc. Sometimes with comments regarding caliber. Were "rifled" arms rifled when manufactured or rifled when transformed? What techniques were used in transformation? These issues are generally not discussed.)
Once the weapons were received, there is considerable inconsistency in how the officers and men of the Federal and Confederate Armies described their weapons in both official and unofficial documents. In 1863 Lieutenant Colonel Mallet suggested that Confederate ordnance revise the nomenclature it used to describe arms, in that the generic names in use – “Austrian,” “Belgian,” and “English” – covered a number of different weapons models and calibers. Federal soldiers generally described the Muster 1854, Type I or II, System Lorenz weapon as a rifle musket, for example, while Confederate soldiers generally described it as a rifle. But, this was inconsistent in both armies. Both sides were rank amateurs as soldiers. Quotations from original sources reflect this dichotomy, and it should always be kept in mind by the modern reader.
Regards,
Don Dixon
View attachment 212441
Although it's unlikely any of these saw use (in this form at least, still in flint before being transformed or altered to percussion) in our Civil War, I'd like to add them as examples of earlier French or Belgian cavalry weapons, dating from ca. 1798-1815, the period of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars. From the top above, a likely Belgian musketoon (only slightly shorter than the regulation French infantry musket); a French Fusil d'Dragon (dragoon musketoon), used by both light infantry and cavalry who also fought on foot (dragoons); Musketon Mlle. An XIII, dated 1812 and the type used by most French Napoleonic cavalrymen; and at right, the earlier-style Musketon d'Hussard, this one dating from the French Revolution and because of its almost toy-like scale and light weight intended for use by cavalry scouts.
During the wars of the French Revolution, Belgium was "freed" from Spanish control and assimilated into France; only on Napoleon's first downfall in 1814 was it proclaimed independent with its own hereditary monarchy, the House of Orange. Therefore, in this period anything "Belgian" is actually French, although there were no official armories located there, despite the huge concentration of gunmakers in Liege. The closest to this idea was the Imperial Lockplate Factory in Liege that made the lock (only) for the top musketoon, which was likely stocked following Belgium's independence, though it bears the inscription Mfture Imple. (Made in the Empire.) Since it's shorter than an infantry musket it could've armed either heavy cavalry, or more likely light infantry.
French Cavalry Arms
View attachment 212444
The top fusil is also shorter than an infantry musket, with triggerguard, lower band, and nosecap (and usually buttplate too) all in laiton (brass). It's dated 1807 on the barrel and marked Mfture Imple du Charleville on the lockplate. Charleville was only one of several French armories, others being at Mauberge, St. Etienne, and Tulle (for Navy arms), although all these are often wrongly called Charlevilles by American collectors. The musketoons will be shown in more detail below.
View attachment 212452
These cavalry musketoons are very similar and both designs originated earlier in the Eighteenth Century, though they were modified into the forms here by the time of the Revolution. Both should have sidebars and rings to attach them to carbine hooks and slings; for some reason the one at top has had its removed, possibly because these were sometimes used to arm light infantrymen, especially at the end of the Napoleonic Wars when arms were in short supply. (Note that it was also manufactured with sling swivels for a conventional leather sling.)
View attachment 212448
Cavalrie Musketon
View attachment 212446
This is properly a Mlle. An. XIII Musketon or M.1804 and marked on the lockplate Mfture Imple du Charleville. These lightweight weapons aren't really carbines in the true sense of the word because they share the same .69 bore with all French arms of the period, whether muskets, fusils, musketons, or pistols! These armed all kinds of French horsemen, chasseurs, lanciers, gendarmes, curiassiers, carabiniers, etc. and even infantrie legere or light infantry and sapeurs or engineer troops.
View attachment 212445
Inspectors marks were applied to the buttstock in a circle around a hard cherrywood plug set into the walnut stocks bearing the initials EF for Empire Francaise or French Empire. Other marks indicated the date of acceptance, in this case 1813. (The barrel is dated 1812.) A French arms collector friend of mine has told me the later name Jouasse carved into the stock is a common French surname.
Musketon d'Hussard
View attachment 212450
The other is engraved on the lock simply Gosuin a'Liege, a product of the Gosuin familly, gunmakers in Liege, Belguim, then a part of France. Although undated, this arm retains faint indentations where the Revolutionary inspectors stamps were once visible on the butt; this contract between the Revolutionary government in Paris and Gosuin dates to ca. 1798 near the end of the Revolutionary period.
View attachment 212451
Originally this was termed the Mlle. 1777 and was intended to arm what was the showiest branch of the French cavalry the hussars, whose uniforms and tack were patterned after those used by Hungarian light cavalry, whose primary function were as scouts and pickets. This weapon may appear to be cut down but in fact was made this way, evident from the unusual way the nosecap is secured beneath the lower band! The ramrod is also offset in its channel, so as to avoid the screws from the triggerguard.
View attachment 212447
View attachment 212441
Although it's unlikely any of these saw use (in this form at least, still in flint before being transformed or altered to percussion) in our Civil War, I'd like to add them as examples of earlier French or Belgian cavalry weapons, dating from ca. 1798-1815, the period of the French Revolutionary and Napoleonic wars. From the top above, a likely Belgian musketoon (only slightly shorter than the regulation French infantry musket); a French Fusil d'Dragon (dragoon musketoon), used by both light infantry and cavalry who also fought on foot (dragoons); Musketon Mlle. An XIII, dated 1812 and the type used by most French Napoleonic cavalrymen; and at right, the earlier-style Musketon d'Hussard, this one dating from the French Revolution and because of its almost toy-like scale and light weight intended for use by cavalry scouts.
During the wars of the French Revolution, Belgium was "freed" from Spanish control and assimilated into France; only on Napoleon's first downfall in 1814 was it proclaimed independent with its own hereditary monarchy, the House of Orange. Therefore, in this period anything "Belgian" is actually French, although there were no official armories located there, despite the huge concentration of gunmakers in Liege. The closest to this idea was the Imperial Lockplate Factory in Liege that made the lock (only) for the top musketoon, which was likely stocked following Belgium's independence, though it bears the inscription Mfture Imple. (Made in the Empire.) Since it's shorter than an infantry musket it could've armed either heavy cavalry, or more likely light infantry.
French Cavalry Arms
View attachment 212444
The top fusil is also shorter than an infantry musket, with triggerguard, lower band, and nosecap (and usually buttplate too) all in laiton (brass). It's dated 1807 on the barrel and marked Mfture Imple du Charleville on the lockplate. Charleville was only one of several French armories, others being at Mauberge, St. Etienne, and Tulle (for Navy arms), although all these are often wrongly called Charlevilles by American collectors. The musketoons will be shown in more detail below.
View attachment 212452
These cavalry musketoons are very similar and both designs originated earlier in the Eighteenth Century, though they were modified into the forms here by the time of the Revolution. Both should have sidebars and rings to attach them to carbine hooks and slings; for some reason the one at top has had its removed, possibly because these were sometimes used to arm light infantrymen, especially at the end of the Napoleonic Wars when arms were in short supply. (Note that it was also manufactured with sling swivels for a conventional leather sling.)
View attachment 212448
Cavalrie Musketon
View attachment 212446
This is properly a Mlle. An. XIII Musketon or M.1804 and marked on the lockplate Mfture Imple du Charleville. These lightweight weapons aren't really carbines in the true sense of the word because they share the same .69 bore with all French arms of the period, whether muskets, fusils, musketons, or pistols! These armed all kinds of French horsemen, chasseurs, lanciers, gendarmes, curiassiers, carabiniers, etc. and even infantrie legere or light infantry and sapeurs or engineer troops.
View attachment 212445
Inspectors marks were applied to the buttstock in a circle around a hard cherrywood plug set into the walnut stocks bearing the initials EF for Empire Francaise or French Empire. Other marks indicated the date of acceptance, in this case 1813. (The barrel is dated 1812.) A French arms collector friend of mine has told me the later name Jouasse carved into the stock is a common French surname.
Musketon d'Hussard
View attachment 212450
The other is engraved on the lock simply Gosuin a'Liege, a product of the Gosuin familly, gunmakers in Liege, Belguim, then a part of France. Although undated, this arm retains faint indentations where the Revolutionary inspectors stamps were once visible on the butt; this contract between the Revolutionary government in Paris and Gosuin dates to ca. 1798 near the end of the Revolutionary period.
View attachment 212451
Originally this was termed the Mlle. 1777 and was intended to arm what was the showiest branch of the French cavalry the hussars, whose uniforms and tack were patterned after those used by Hungarian light cavalry, whose primary function were as scouts and pickets. This weapon may appear to be cut down but in fact was made this way, evident from the unusual way the nosecap is secured beneath the lower band! The ramrod is also offset in its channel, so as to avoid the screws from the triggerguard.
View attachment 212447
I think I'm lucky too, although it's not in the best condition - a piece of wood has been replaced between the tang screw and the lockplate and the stock has been eaten by "worms" (actually beetle larvae) overall and filled in with wax sometime long before I got it. It was also missing the ring on the sidebar but a friend of mine who was fantastic at restoration replaced it. It's also been overcleaned and polished, but I was still happy to get it!The Musketon d'hussard it's a rare rifle, you're lucky to have one!
The regulation for the construction of this musket is of 7 July 1786, the production of this weapon was interrupted in 1803, it returned to production in 1810 but only to Maubeuge, with some improvements adopted for the model AN IX.