Free Blacks taken in Pennsylvania

GwilymT

First Sergeant
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Pittsburgh
Certain people that were legally free by USA law were not legally free by CSA law. The CSA Army was following the CSA law. According to them what they did was legal. According to USA what they did was kidnapping. Two points of view and two legal systems. Thus the conflict.

But there are people arguing that no such thing happened... surely any person without an agenda cannot say that black people weren’t taken south by CSA forces against their will.
 

leftyhunter

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los angeles ca
A whole lot of conscripts were conscripts for life.
Only in the sense that they were killed. On the other hand unlike slaves once the war was over conscript's went home. Also almost every Democratic national in the last one hundred years had some form of conscription. Does that make all conscript's slave's?
Leftyhunter
 

E_just_E

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The Confederacy was never recognized as a nation. Therefore why should we favor or respect the Confederacies view that kidnapping black people in Pennsylvania is acceptable?
Leftyhunter

No favor and/or respect necessarily. Just understanding their point of view, which is critical if anyone wants to understand History, instead of going for a witch hunt. Both points of view need to be taken into consideration. And can happen without "favoring" either.
 

Pat Young

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Long Island, NY
Well it wasn't just newspaper accounts. I don't mean to be argumentative but there sure are documented cases where free blacks were kidnapped before 1863- well before. Why would everyone take a break just for the invasion? Makes no sense.

Why is it not enough for eye witness accounts from Gettysburg's black community to be taken seriously? Why do they not have a voice? And why would Gettysburg civilians make stuff up- I'm not going to do it yet again but there are accounts on the subject- why are they discounted? Why why why- always why.

Also not to be argumentative - how on earth does a free black, kidnapped and taken South, document their experience? Any idea ( for one thing ) how many Americans couldn't write, much less prove their identity if need be? Where would be the resources to get their story out? It took 12 years for one man and he had some support and ability to prove what he said.
Agree with you. Pretty tired of people defending kidnapping and rape under claims that such crimes could not be committed against black people.
 

Robin Lesjovitch

Sergeant
Joined
Dec 16, 2018
Pretty sure that the above (AKA Lincoln's General Order 100) did not apply for the Confederates :wink:

I am certain of it. The last section is very telling.
Art. 157.
Armed or unarmed resistance by citizens of the United States against the lawful movements of their troops is levying war against the United States, and is therefore treason.

The Lieber Code deals almost entirely with war between sovereign nations. The Confederacy was not so defined.
 

NH Civil War Gal

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No favor and/or respect necessarily. Just understanding their point of view, which is critical if anyone wants to understand History, instead of going for a witch hunt. Both points of view need to be taken into consideration. And can happen without "favoring" either.

Yes, I don't like it, but I am trying to understand both points of view.
 

leftyhunter

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Joined
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Location
los angeles ca
No favor and/or respect necessarily. Just understanding their point of view, which is critical if anyone wants to understand History, instead of going for a witch hunt. Both points of view need to be taken into consideration. And can happen without "favoring" either.
I get that but not the criticism that we can't call hunting down free people kidnapping because the Supreme Court said it's OK for an insurgent army to do so. Certainly the black people of Pennsylvania would consider themselves kidnapped.
Leftyhunter
 

jgoodguy

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Only in the sense that they were killed. On the other hand unlike slaves once the war was over conscript's went home. Also almost every Democratic national in the last one hundred years had some form of conscription. Does that make all conscript's slave's?
Leftyhunter
Beats me, I am not the one torturing the definition of kidnapping.
 

leftyhunter

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Location
los angeles ca
I am certain of it. The last section is very telling.
Art. 157.
Armed or unarmed resistance by citizens of the United States against the lawful movements of their troops is levying war against the United States, and is therefore treason.

The Lieber Code deals almost entirely with war between sovereign nations. The Confederacy was not so defined.
Yet the US Supreme Court decision Dow vs Johnston seemed to state that while a rebellion against the United States is illegal the actions of those violently rebelling us fine and dandy. Perhaps @jgoodguy could comment on that and just how many Rebels does it take for the US government per Dow v.Johnson to have to give amnesty for any violence committed during a rebellion?
Leftyhunter
 

19thGeorgia

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
I don’t have a dog in this particular fight, but reading through the thread it seems obvious to anyone without an agenda that black people, whatever their status, were captured by the Confederate forces and taken south.
But it appears to be less than 100 instead of the "hundreds" or "over 1000" claimed by some. The Richmond Sentinel of August 21 & 28 shows a total of 74 slaves and 7 fmc - but we have no information about where these people were captured though we could assume that most were captured in PA. Also, there is no record of any free person of color being "sold into slavery."

From Copperhead-mi:
Richmond Sentinel, 8/21/1863
"Slaves Confined in Castle Thunder. - The officers in charge of Castle Thunder and the Libby prisons, have very courteously furnished us with the annexed list of slaves, the names of their owners, and, where it is known, their place of residence. As the information is derived from the negroes there may be mistakes in the names of their masters. Besides the following, there are a number of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons claiming to be free. We make this publication for the benefit of those citizens who have lost slaves:
[List of 70 slaves, male and female, young and old, not transcribed]
Slaves Confined in Libby Prison.
Charles Boswell, man, owned by Wm. Davis, Prince William county, Va.
Edmund, man, owned by John Saunderson, Norfolk.
George Hunter, man, owned by Mrs. Straum, Spotsylvania, Va."


From the Richmond Sentinel, 8/28/1863
"The Slaves at Castle Thunder. – Some days ago we published a list of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons, who admitted they were slaves, and several gentlemen, seeing the list, have come forward and recovered their “property.”
The following have been received at Castle Thunder since the publication of the former list:
Samuel Chinn, slave of C. Bronn.
Richard Poindexter, slave of Robert Goodman.
Jas. Sigal, slave of Benj. Temple.
Walter Wiley, slave of Dr. Harding.
As one of the negroes lately committed, and claiming to be free has been recognised by his master, we give a list of negroes received lately, who claim to be free, viz: John Anderson, John Phoenix, James Ashton, John Jones, Jim Bailey, Thos. Lemkens, and W. H. Washington."
 

leftyhunter

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Location
los angeles ca
But it appears to be less than 100 instead of the "hundreds" or "over 1000" claimed by some. The Richmond Sentinel of August 21 & 28 shows a total of 74 slaves and 7 fmc - but we have no information about where these people were captured though we could assume that most were captured in PA. Also, there is no record of any free person of color being sold into slavery.

From Copperhead-mi:
Richmond Sentinel, 8/21/1863
"Slaves Confined in Castle Thunder. - The officers in charge of Castle Thunder and the Libby prisons, have very courteously furnished us with the annexed list of slaves, the names of their owners, and, where it is known, their place of residence. As the information is derived from the negroes there may be mistakes in the names of their masters. Besides the following, there are a number of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons claiming to be free. We make this publication for the benefit of those citizens who have lost slaves:
[List of 70 slaves, male and female, young and old, not transcribed]
Slaves Confined in Libby Prison.
Charles Boswell, man, owned by Wm. Davis, Prince William county, Va.
Edmund, man, owned by John Saunderson, Norfolk.
George Hunter, man, owned by Mrs. Straum, Spotsylvania, Va."


From the Richmond Sentinel, 8/28/1863
"The Slaves at Castle Thunder. – Some days ago we published a list of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons, who admitted they were slaves, and several gentlemen, seeing the list, have come forward and recovered their “property.”
The following have been received at Castle Thunder since the publication of the former list:
Samuel Chinn, slave of C. Bronn.
Richard Poindexter, slave of Robert Goodman.
Jas. Sigal, slave of Benj. Temple.
Walter Wiley, slave of Dr. Harding.
As one of the negroes lately committed, and claiming to be free has been recognised by his master, we give a list of negroes received lately, who claim to be free, viz: John Anderson, John Phoenix, James Ashton, John Jones, Jim Bailey, Thos. Lemkens, and W. H. Washington."
How do we know all kidnapped blacks from Pennsylvania ended up in Castle Thunder or Libby Prison?
Leftyhunter
 

NH Civil War Gal

1st Lieutenant
Forum Host
Joined
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Agree with you. Pretty tired of people defending kidnapping and rape under claims that such crimes could not be committed against black people.

I agree with you Pat, I agree with @JPK Huson 1863, and at the same time with @jgoodguy and @E_just_E on the legal side. But here's the thing. My brain is kind of reeling with the "technically lawful" and what the "reality was." It reminds of what a Dr once told me about side-effects from a drug. "It doesn't matter if a drug only has a 3% chance of a side-effect, it is happens to you, it is 100%."

To me, for these black folk living in PA, the CSA was like a side-effect they hadn't planned on and for them the effect was 100% and life-altering forever. It didn't make one bit of difference, if they could have seen into the future to 1879 to a SCOTUS case. It didn't help them with the day-to-day reality of what went on and what that would mean to them.
 

jgoodguy

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Yes, I don't like it, but I am trying to understand both points of view.

It is what it is. I find the idea of tens of thousands of men dying in combat mostly because of incompetent leadership, insufficient training, and primitive medicine repugnant. Many of those southern boys chasing slaves was never seen again by a loved one. Who do I cry for.
 

jgoodguy

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is a terrible thing...
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Yet the US Supreme Court decision Dow vs Johnston seemed to state that while a rebellion against the United States is illegal the actions of those violently rebelling us fine and dandy. Perhaps @jgoodguy could comment on that and just how many Rebels does it take for the US government per Dow v.Johnson to have to give amnesty for any violence committed during a rebellion?
Leftyhunter

I don't do morals, I do historical facts to the best of my ability.
 

GwilymT

First Sergeant
Joined
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Location
Pittsburgh
But it appears to be less than 100 instead of the "hundreds" or "over 1000" claimed by some. The Richmond Sentinel of August 21 & 28 shows a total of 74 slaves and 7 fmc - but we have no information about where these people were captured though we could assume that most were captured in PA. Also, there is no record of any free person of color being "sold into slavery."

From Copperhead-mi:
Richmond Sentinel, 8/21/1863
"Slaves Confined in Castle Thunder. - The officers in charge of Castle Thunder and the Libby prisons, have very courteously furnished us with the annexed list of slaves, the names of their owners, and, where it is known, their place of residence. As the information is derived from the negroes there may be mistakes in the names of their masters. Besides the following, there are a number of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons claiming to be free. We make this publication for the benefit of those citizens who have lost slaves:
[List of 70 slaves, male and female, young and old, not transcribed]
Slaves Confined in Libby Prison.
Charles Boswell, man, owned by Wm. Davis, Prince William county, Va.
Edmund, man, owned by John Saunderson, Norfolk.
George Hunter, man, owned by Mrs. Straum, Spotsylvania, Va."


From the Richmond Sentinel, 8/28/1863
"The Slaves at Castle Thunder. – Some days ago we published a list of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons, who admitted they were slaves, and several gentlemen, seeing the list, have come forward and recovered their “property.”
The following have been received at Castle Thunder since the publication of the former list:
Samuel Chinn, slave of C. Bronn.
Richard Poindexter, slave of Robert Goodman.
Jas. Sigal, slave of Benj. Temple.
Walter Wiley, slave of Dr. Harding.
As one of the negroes lately committed, and claiming to be free has been recognised by his master, we give a list of negroes received lately, who claim to be free, viz: John Anderson, John Phoenix, James Ashton, John Jones, Jim Bailey, Thos. Lemkens, and W. H. Washington."

Yes, it appears that confederate forces detained black people who, at the time of their detainment were free, and returned them to a state of slavery or imprisoned them. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Pat Young

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Featured Book Reviewer
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Location
Long Island, NY
I agree with you Pat, I agree with @JPK Huson 1863, and at the same time with @jgoodguy and @E_just_E on the legal side. But here's the thing. My brain is kind of reeling with the "technically lawful" and what the "reality was." It reminds of what a Dr once told me about side-effects from a drug. "It doesn't matter if a drug only has a 3% chance of a side-effect, it is happens to you, it is 100%."

To me, for these black folk living in PA, the CSA was like a side-effect they hadn't planned on and for them the effect was 100% and life-altering forever. It didn't make one bit of difference, if they could have seen into the future to 1879 to a SCOTUS case. It didn't help them with the day-to-day reality of what went on and what that would mean to them.
There is nothing under the laws of war that creates a presumption in favor of enslavement.
 
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