Frank James (center) attending a Quantrill Reunion


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Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
10,115
#22
Was Frank physio has his brother are was he just there to protect Jesse from himself ?From the stories which I have read,Frank brought Jesse into the raiders and then Jesse was the real big brother by dictating the actions of the James' gang after the war.
In my view, Frank was a good guerrilla soldier. He was fearless and he was respected by the other guys. He spared some enemy soldiers who made hand signals (I presume brother Freemasons) to him. He has this fearsome, ruthless reputation after the war and I expect he deserves SOME of it. In later life, he became something of a celebrity. Always a very mild mannered celebrity, at that.

On the other hand, I regard Jesse as a bloodthirsty little punk. He was undoubtedly filled with a great hatred for "yankees" after he saw his step father repeatedly hanged, but not quite to the point of death...and after he, himself, was tortured.
Frank didn't turn Jesse's mind. The federals did the first part of that. Later, Jesse came under the influence of Little Archie Clements--especially after the death of Bill Anderson.

I don't believe Frank ever liked the outlaw life very much, and he famously came in and surrendered to MO Governor Crittenden after Jesse's assassination. Frank went to Kentucky with Quantrill after the war. Jesse went to Texas.

Jesse was extremely smart, clever, cunning, and self serving. With the willing complicity of John Newman Edwards (Shelby's adjutant and later founder and editor of the Kansas City Times), Jesse spun his "Robin Hood of Missouri" myth. It worked for a while and some still buy into it. Don't be one of those. Don't buy into it. Jesse was a thieving, murdering punk criminal. Frank was smart and clever, too, and very well read. He was fond of quoted Shakespeare, and some say he even cussed his mules in Shakespearean terms. I saw that portrayed very effectively in a television movie: "You rapscallions! I'll hoist thee by thine own petards!" etc. etc. etc.

You can believe what you wish about Frank, but just remember that he was never convicted of anything. After he surrendered to Crittenden he stood two trials. He was acquitted in the first and charges were dropped in the second. Frank was, legally, an innocent man.

After some crimes, various witnesses reported masked men declaring: "This is the James Gang! Hand over your valuables!" Pretty easy way for a masked man to divert blame onto someone who already had a reputation.

I don't know whether Frank was a criminal or simply a wanted man. But he is one of the Quantrill guerrillas who I think was a good soldier. I obviously don't have much use for Jesse.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
10,115
#23
C-Span Video:

Frank and Jesse James ----James P. Muehlberger talked about the 1869 killing of a bank cashier in Gallatin, Missouri that has long been considered the first in a long line of robberies by Jesse and Frank James. In his book, The Lost Cause: The Trials of Frank and Jesse James, Muehlberger argues that it wasn’t a robbery attempt at all; rather, it was a carefully planned execution meant to avenge the death of Confederate guerilla leader Bill Anderson during the Civil War. He spoke at the Kansas City Public Library.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?314282-1/frank-jesse-james
I'm sorry to report that I couldn't get it to play.
 

SWMODave

First Sergeant
Forum Host
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Jul 23, 2017
Messages
1,299
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Southwest Missouri
#24
I'm sorry to report that I couldn't get it to play.
Patrick - I cant get any of the C-Span videos to run on my Firefox browser - probably due to all the extra security add-ons I have running. But they work fine on Chrome, so you might try a different browser than you normally use.
 

Booner

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
2,091
Location
Boonville, MO
#27
The name of the lady who I couldn't remember is Elizabeth C. Wallace, unmarried sister of J.D. Wallace on who's homestead the reunions would be held from 1912 until the last reunion in 1929.

Frank James died in 1915. His wife, Anne Ralston James was 10 years younger than Frank and she died in 1944.
her picture is here. She could be the lady standing next to Frank in the original post, but is the lady standing next to Frank 10 years younger?
3eccf7751f.jpg


Elizabeth Wallace was born appox. 1844, and Frank James was born in 1843, and it appears to me that Frank and the
The women in the picture next to Frank appears to be approximately the same age. Below is a picture of the 1920 reunion, which would have been held at the Wallace Grove residence, so I assume the lady in the background is Elizabeth Wallace, but does she look like the woman standing next to Frank? I can't tell.
1920.jpg


Below is the notice of the death of Elizabeth Wallace.
Either September or November 9, 1938 Intercity News - Kansas City, MO area
Funeral Today For Elizabeth Wallace
Services Will Be Held At the Home 8607 Wilson Road at 2 O'clock
Funeral services will be held at 2 o'clock this afternoon for Miss
Elizabeth Cynthia Wallace, 94, at the home, 8607 Wallace.
Miss Wallace, known to her many friends as "Aunt E" died Tuesday at
her home in what is known as Wallace Grove. She had been an invalid for
twenty years, and for the past fourteen years had been blind.
She was born in Jackson county, the daughter of John C. and Nellie
Duncan Wallace who came to Jackson county and settled on a huge farm which
lay west of Blue Ridge, between Van Horn and old Independence road. The
home in which Miss Wallace died and where she lived with a brother, J.D.
Wallace, and Mrs. Wallace, was a part of the old homestead.
The only time Miss Wallace left the county was during the Civil war
when her father, a fiery Southerner, was compelled to take his family
across the Missouri river into Clay county.
Miss Wallace never reconciled herself to the victory of the Union
army. Her home remained a rallying point after the war for Confederates
and Confederate sympathizers. In the grove around the old homestead annual
Quantrill reunions were held annually in August. The last such gathering
of men who followed the guerilla chieftain in the Civil War was held at the
home in 1929.
For many years, before the Inter-City district developed, the big 9-
room home of the Wallaces was a landmark between Kansas City and
Independence. As both cities encroached upon the farm it dwindled to a
grove and in the last twenty-five years even the grove was platted and the
lots leased for the erection of cottages. The settlement has been known
both as "Wallace Grove" and "The Hill" for many years.
Miss Wallace continued to live in the old home, treasuring relics of
Civil war days and nursing a persistent resentment against the North. She
never married after her fiancee was killed in the Civil war.
Miss Wallace kept abreast of the times despite the fact she had to
remain in her bedroom, either in a rocker or her bed. By means of her
radio and visits from friends, she maintained an active interest in present
day affairs, and her mind was keen and alert.
Besides J.D. Wallace, she is survived by another brother, M.F.
Wallace, Lufkin, Tex.
 
Joined
Dec 13, 2016
Messages
4
#28
I attached my photo of Mrs. John Poole from the James collection. The reverse side gives the identities. The woman in the above post with Frank James is the wife of John Poole taken in Texas. Fletch Taylor died in California in 1912. Frank James did not have a beard at that time. I have another picture of Frank James taken about 1912 in Happy Hollow amusement park in Arkansas. Frank is bald and beardless in that Photo.
Mrs John Poole Texas.jpg
Frank James Happy hollow.jpg
 

John S. Carter

First Sergeant
Joined
Mar 15, 2017
Messages
1,330
#29
In my view, Frank was a good guerrilla soldier. He was fearless and he was respected by the other guys. He spared some enemy soldiers who made hand signals (I presume brother Freemasons) to him. He has this fearsome, ruthless reputation after the war and I expect he deserves SOME of it. In later life, he became something of a celebrity. Always a very mild mannered celebrity, at that.

On the other hand, I regard Jesse as a bloodthirsty little punk. He was undoubtedly filled with a great hatred for "yankees" after he saw his step father repeatedly hanged, but not quite to the point of death...and after he, himself, was tortured.
Frank didn't turn Jesse's mind. The federals did the first part of that. Later, Jesse came under the influence of Little Archie Clements--especially after the death of Bill Anderson.

I don't believe Frank ever liked the outlaw life very much, and he famously came in and surrendered to MO Governor Crittenden after Jesse's assassination. Frank went to Kentucky with Quantrill after the war. Jesse went to Texas.

Jesse was extremely smart, clever, cunning, and self serving. With the willing complicity of John Newman Edwards (Shelby's adjutant and later founder and editor of the Kansas City Times), Jesse spun his "Robin Hood of Missouri" myth. It worked for a while and some still buy into it. Don't be one of those. Don't buy into it. Jesse was a thieving, murdering punk criminal. Frank was smart and clever, too, and very well read. He was fond of quoted Shakespeare, and some say he even cussed his mules in Shakespearean terms. I saw that portrayed very effectively in a television movie: "You rapscallions! I'll hoist thee by thine own petards!" etc. etc. etc.

You can believe what you wish about Frank, but just remember that he was never convicted of anything. After he surrendered to Crittenden he stood two trials. He was acquitted in the first and charges were dropped in the second. Frank was, legally, an innocent man.

After some crimes, various witnesses reported masked men declaring: "This is the James Gang! Hand over your valuables!" Pretty easy way for a masked man to divert blame onto someone who already had a reputation.

I don't know whether Frank was a criminal or simply a wanted man. But he is one of the Quantrill guerrillas who I think was a good soldier. I obviously don't have much use for Jesse.
Who was the news man who made Jesse into a Robin Hood and a defender of the Old South ?Was Jesse made in to a hero by a Northern writer of early day pamphlets as was Bill Hickok,Davy Crockett ,Billy the Kid,and other period myths.Even if you go back to the movies Jesse was created as a noble crusader against the Northern rail roads and banks who were robbing the South.Then the evil Pinkerton and governor of Ms plotting his end by traitorous Mr.Ford.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
10,115
#30
Who was the news man who made Jesse into a Robin Hood and a defender of the Old South ?Was Jesse made in to a hero by a Northern writer of early day pamphlets as was Bill Hickok,Davy Crockett ,Billy the Kid,and other period myths.Even if you go back to the movies Jesse was created as a noble crusader against the Northern rail roads and banks who were robbing the South.Then the evil Pinkerton and governor of Ms plotting his end by traitorous Mr.Ford.
The newsman who collaborated with Jesse was John Newman Edwards. He was "Major Edwards" to most of the Missouri boys. That's because he was the adjutant of Gen. J. O. Shelby. In addition to logging a daily journal of everything Shelby's Brigade did, Edwards ran a formidable intelligence and logistics network that kept Shelby supplied with intelligence and necessary materiel during his Great Raid of October, 1863. That raid followed a 1,600 mile path through Yankee territory including a large swath of the state of Missouri. It cemented Shelby's reputation and earned him his Brigadier star.

Edwards was a great cavalry soldier, but was plagued by human frailties after the war. He was a bombastic writer most of the time--creating flowery prose that is almost beyond imagination. He was also an alcoholic who died too young. He founded the Kansas City Star newspaper.

Edwards wrote, among other things: "The War in the West" (about Shelby), "Noted Guerrillas" (sometimes writing about guerrillas he'd probably never met) and some others.

As the editor of the K.C.STAR, he collaborated with Jesse to write opinion pieces and what we would call "fake news" stories to build Jesse's myth.

One good thing he seems to have done is that I believe he is responsible for brokering the deal with Governor Crittenden to allow Frank James to come in, surrender, and NOT be extradited out of the state.

I don't wish to dance on Maj. Edwards's grave. He was a good soldier, but a flawed man like the rest of us. Let's hope that he rests in peace.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
10,115
#31
I attached my photo of Mrs. John Poole from the James collection. The reverse side gives the identities. The woman in the above post with Frank James is the wife of John Poole taken in Texas. Fletch Taylor died in California in 1912. Frank James did not have a beard at that time. I have another picture of Frank James taken about 1912 in Happy Hollow amusement park in Arkansas. Frank is bald and beardless in that Photo.
View attachment 162499 View attachment 162498
There is no doubt WHATSOEVER that we are seeing Frank. The lop ears and the Roman nose betray him every time. But don't let that face fool you. There was a fine brain working inside that head. Frank was a very intelligent man. Well read, too.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
Messages
10,115
#32
I attached my photo of Mrs. John Poole from the James collection. The reverse side gives the identities. The woman in the above post with Frank James is the wife of John Poole taken in Texas. Fletch Taylor died in California in 1912. Frank James did not have a beard at that time. I have another picture of Frank James taken about 1912 in Happy Hollow amusement park in Arkansas. Frank is bald and beardless in that Photo.
View attachment 162499 View attachment 162498
I neglected to thank you for identifying the lady and also giving us another nice photo of Frank.
 

Booner

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
2,091
Location
Boonville, MO
#35
1920-jpg.162496.jpg


Today I was showing Boonslick a book I purchased earlier this year, "Branded As Rebels" by Joanne C. Eakins & Donald R. Hale. After Booslick left I looked through the book again and came upon the above picture, but this time, the people in the picture were identified.
The photo was made by Bill Curtis and was published in the Kansas City Star, Sunday Aug. 29. 1920

first row (I'm assuming left to right):
Harry Hoffman (man in white shirt), unknown older man, picture of Quantrill, Jesse E. James (son of Jesse W. James)

second row:
Morgan Maddox?, George Noland (behind Q's picture), John W. Williams

third row:
John Brown? Jim Campbell (badge on lapel), Willis Redman

Standing: Miss Lizzie Wallace
Picture taken at the Wallace home, near Independence, MO.

I had speculated earlier that the woman in the picture might be Ms. Wallace and that the picture may have been taken at the Wallace residence.

One other thing to note; Not all of the men pictured actually rode with Q; for example Jesse E. James, son of Jesse W. James, was born after the war. To have ridden with Q, one would have to be at lease 75 years old at the time the picture was taken. (assuming one was 15 years old in 1860). From my roster of Q's men (listing over 750 names), the unnamed man sitting to the left of Q's Picture certainly looks old enough, I can only come up with four men listed in the photo who actually rode with Q. Morgan Maddox, George Noland and John Brown. The forth man, listed as John W. Williams may be the William Williams listed on the roster. The other men may be relatives of men who rode with Q.
 

Booner

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
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Messages
2,091
Location
Boonville, MO
#40
CSA Today, I have always heard that Truman was a SCV member, is that true?
I don't know what's required to be a member of the SCV, but President Truman had relatives who rode with Quantrill as well as serving in the CSA.

James J. "Jim Crow" Chiles was an uncle to the president through marriage.
The President was related to the Noland Family through Francis Asbury Noland, therefore the President would have had a number of Noland cousins who rode with Quantrill, including possibly, John Noland, the mulatto who was a spy for Quantrill.

The President's wife's maiden name was Wallace, and she may possibly be related to the Wallace family who hosted some of the Quantrill reunions on their property, "Wallace Grove."

The president had a number of ancestors who were part of the original settlers around Independence, MO in the 1830's & 40's and therefore would have had very southern leanings during the rebellion.
 



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