Fort Sumter

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Freddy

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Dec 19, 2006
Messages
3,315
Location
Worcester, MA
Well, you see that the South's firing at Fort Sumpter was the declaration of war while I see that the invasion of the federal warship was a violation and a act of war.

Since we differ on that issue, there is no need nor should we argue against each other about that because that produces quarrels. I don't want to quarrel with anyone on differences in opinions about this great war subject. :smile:
Are you serious? The US cannot invade its own territory, whether that be a US state, US territory, or US waters. Firing on a US government ship, fort, or troops by its citizens is an act of rebellion. The Civil War settled this. There is no right of secession for states. States are free to rebell from the US. However, the US is authorized to put down rebellions.
From the Constitution:
Article I: The Legislative Branch: Section 8: Powers of Congress,
Clause 15,
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions
 

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,818
Location
California
Thank you, Freddy.

Anyone interested in pulling up something from the Constitution that states anything to the effect of permiting exit or the Union being temporary, please do so.

Failing that being shown to actually exist in the Constitution...my computer is set to translate all posts claiming it does as "War is peace. Black is white. Up is down."

With all due respect, there are things that are upheld by the law and there are things shot down by the law. If yours is one of the latter, don't waste your time or anyone else's claiming it isn't.

Thank you.
 

Mr King

Sergeant
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
697
Are you serious? The US cannot invade its own territory, whether that be a US state, US territory, or US waters. Firing on a US government ship, fort, or troops by its citizens is an act of rebellion. The Civil War settled this. There is no right of secession for states. States are free to rebell from the US. However, the US is authorized to put down rebellions.
From the Constitution:
Article I: The Legislative Branch: Section 8: Powers of Congress,
Clause 15,
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions
So this would mean that the United Nations has the final say so and authority over the United States. The UN can allow to send ships of all kinds from all the countries that are in treaty with the UN to come and go as they please through the United States without our approval.

South Carolina saw that the federal warship was invading their coast to reenforce the fort without authorization to do so. They fired out of self-defense to protect their borders and coastlines. If the borders of your country is threatened, then your homes are threatened.

The United States never was a country. It's a form of government with the unity of the states. But the US government cannot or should not ever rise above the states' authorities.
 
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cw1865

Sergeant Major
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
1,850
Location
Riverdale, NJ (Morris County)
Flashpoint

The best way to describe Fort Sumter is that it is the 'flashpoint' of the Civil War.

If everything the South says is true, Federal insistence on maintaining the fort is simply obstinate.

If everything the North says is true, the Federals have every right to be there and firing is an overt act of rebellion.

If secession is legal, Federal insistence that its illegal means that failure to recognize secession is 'cause of the war'

If secession is illegal, Federal insistence that its illegal means that Southern failure to recognize Federal law is 'cause of war'
 

trice

Lt. Colonel
Joined
May 2, 2006
Messages
11,918
The United States never was a country. It's a form of government with the unity of the states. But the US government cannot or should not ever rise above the states' authorities.
This is inaccurate. All of the states -- each and every one of them -- had agreed to make their authority and laws subordinate to the United States. Each and every one of their officials -- elected or appointed -- swore a personal oath to uphold that agreement: the Constitution of the United States.

It is also worth noting that the treaty that ends the American Revolution says that it is between two countries, and one of them is the United States of America.

Tim
 

cw1865

Sergeant Major
Joined
Jun 12, 2007
Messages
1,850
Location
Riverdale, NJ (Morris County)
Proof Positive

The United States never was a country. It's a form of government with the unity of the states. But the US government cannot or should not ever rise above the states' authorities.
Proof positive that to be pro-secession, you need to be anti-American.

"The United States never was a country."

Please do continue saying such things.
 
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Mr King

Sergeant
Joined
Jun 21, 2008
Messages
697
Proof positive that to be pro-secession, you need to be anti-American.

"The United States never was a country."

Please do continue saying such things.
Anti-american? What did the South form? The Confederate States of America. They were anti-federal control over the states, not anti-americans.
 

Elennsar

Colonel
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,818
Location
California
For reasons lost in the mists of time and probably having to the fact "Statsean" doesn't sound right, residents of the United States of America are refered to as Americans. Similarly, "American" is often used to refer to the government (American government), ships, people, etc. as an adjective.

This is not news, surely?

That is the sense they were (and those who support them now are) anti-American.

They were perfectly happy with the federal government ramming a tough fugitive slave law down the throats of the free-staters, but God have mercy on any federal government who dares act in the other direction on the slavery question, for they don't intend to give any.
 
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Parrott Gun

Private
Joined
May 26, 2008
Messages
109
Location
Pennsylvania
Anti-american? What did the South form? The Confederate States of America. They were anti-federal control over the states, not anti-americans.
If they were opposed to Federal control of the states, why did they support the Fugitive Slave Act, arguably the biggest exercise of Federal authority over the states in the history of our nation? Why were so many southerners suggesting that the Dred Scott decision should apply to the states as well as the territories? When they formed their own government and drafted a constitution why didn't they increase the states' power in any meaningful way? Why did they take away the states' right to abolish slavery?

Why was the south so eager to abandon their states' rights philosophy when they thought it was the best way to perpetuate slavery?
 
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