Forrest was no "Lost Cause" zealot in later life

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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
All the ex-Confederates were dodgy after the war, even Robert E Lee. You can take a lot of what they said two ways or even more! They didn't know whether they were going to be tried, have to leave the country, what Johnson would do or what the radical Republicans in Congress would do. There was the chaos of the war and the huge changes in Southern society with emancipation. There were those who sought revenge on both sides. And, they didn't know what would happen in the wake of Lincoln's death. Forrest wasn't the only former general to lead an insurrectionary clandestine group, either.

If Forrest was enigmatic or ambiguous about things he said, he sure had good reason for it!
We should remember Radical Reconstruction had just ended when Forrest died in 1877. No former high-ranking Confederate felt completely safe during these years – a wise ex Confederate watched his mouth and said and wrote only what the Feds wanted to him to say or write.

I've got no respect for any young man who won't join the colors
Nathan Bedford Forrest
 

diane

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Location
State of Jefferson
We should remember Radical Reconstruction had just ended when Forrest died in 1877. No former high-ranking Confederate felt completely safe during these years – a wise ex Confederate watched his mouth and said and wrote only what the Feds wanted to him to say or write.

I've got no respect for any young man who won't join the colors
Nathan Bedford Forrest
That's true. That's when some of them who had gone to Canada or Mexico or somewhere else came back to the country. I think I mentioned on another thread that D H Hill's son was shot because his father was a vocal opponent of Radical Reconstruction - his Southern heritage magazine ended in 1877, too. (The shooter was drunk and with a bunch of like-minded characters, but it was still Hill's politics!)
 
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Sagebrush

Corporal
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Location
Morristown, TN
To Bama46 and Nathanb1,

I only wish what you say about only a "few southerners hating the Union" were true. I can tell you from first hand experience that my immediate introduction to the reenactment world as portrayed by a large number of Southern Confederate reenactors was the onslaught of insults, degradation and demonization of anything Northern, Union, or Lincoln related. And, I am talking about bashing that was completely unprovoked, and that even includes those who portray Confederate chaplains. I received an education that I had not anticipated. The SCV and UDC are notorious for this sort of attitude, which is probably why I have met more ex-SCV members in recent years than current members. Yes! I am making a broad generalization but listen to what they are saying. Look at the literature they are pushing. Check out their book tables. "The Lost Cause" religion, if you will, is all over the Internet and Facebook. I have been to enough reenactments to know that this form of "Southern aggression" towards "Yankees" and anything related to them, is quite widespread and is doing great damage to the reenactment community---if you can call it a community. If it were a relative few, that would be one thing. But, it is not a relative few. It is a disturbing MANY!
 

CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
To Bama46 and Nathanb1,

I only wish what you say about only a "few southerners hating the Union" were true. I can tell you from first hand experience that my immediate introduction to the reenactment world as portrayed by a large number of Southern Confederate reenactors was the onslaught of insults, degradation and demonization of anything Northern, Union, or Lincoln related. And, I am talking about bashing that was completely unprovoked, and that even includes those who portray Confederate chaplains. I received an education that I had not anticipated. The SCV and UDC are notorious for this sort of attitude, which is probably why I have met more ex-SCV members in recent years than current members. Yes! I am making a broad generalization but listen to what they are saying. Look at the literature they are pushing. Check out their book tables. "The Lost Cause" religion, if you will, is all over the Internet and Facebook. I have been to enough reenactments to know that this form of "Southern aggression" towards "Yankees" and anything related to them, is quite widespread and is doing great damage to the reenactment community---if you can call it a community. If it were a relative few, that would be one thing. But, it is not a relative few. It is a disturbing MANY!
To Bama46 and Nathanb1,

I only wish what you say about only a "few southerners hating the Union" were true. I can tell you from first hand experience that my immediate introduction to the reenactment world as portrayed by a large number of Southern Confederate reenactors was the onslaught of insults, degradation and demonization of anything Northern, Union, or Lincoln related. And, I am talking about bashing that was completely unprovoked, and that even includes those who portray Confederate chaplains. I received an education that I had not anticipated. The SCV and UDC are notorious for this sort of attitude, which is probably why I have met more ex-SCV members in recent years than current members. Yes! I am making a broad generalization but listen to what they are saying. Look at the literature they are pushing. Check out their book tables. "The Lost Cause" religion, if you will, is all over the Internet and Facebook. I have been to enough reenactments to know that this form of "Southern aggression" towards "Yankees" and anything related to them, is quite widespread and is doing great damage to the reenactment community---if you can call it a community. If it were a relative few, that would be one thing. But, it is not a relative few. It is a disturbing MANY!
Wow, that’s the most encouraging news I’ve heard in a while.

"Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your *ss out!”

Eugene Genovese
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
Much obliged for adding credibility to my point!
I’m always here to help, but in the meantime you might try staying out of the CS camps –you may provoking the boys.

"Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your #ss out!”

Eugene Genovese
 

Diana9

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Feb 25, 2012
Location
Southern California
Like it or not, most people are opportunists in one fashion or another.
I obviously meant it in the pejorative sense, which is the most common usage. I disagree with your cynical assessment that "most people are opportunists."

Pejorative use:
Opportunist: a person who practices opportunism, or the policy of adapting actions, decisions, etc., to effectiveness regardless of the sacrifice of ethical principles: He is an extreme opportunist and always thinks the ends justify the means.

Positive use:
opportunist: a person who adapts his actions, responses, etc, to take advantage of opportunities, circumstances, etc

Pejorative example: He seized the opportunity to advance his own political career by deceiving the public.
Positive example: A student seized the opportunity to get a good education by studying hard. (Though you would not say a good student is an opportunist).

I think the historical facts bear out that Forrest was an opportunist in the pejorative sense.

Forrest lived in a corrupt society where few options for making a good honest living where available to him. The easiest way for him to personally advance himself economically was through the slave trade. This is somewhat understandable, given the circumstances, but it's certainly not something to be admired.
 

Sagebrush

Corporal
Joined
Dec 26, 2010
Location
Morristown, TN
I’m always here to help, but in the meantime you might try staying out of the CS camps –you may provoking the boys.

"Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your #ss out!”

Eugene Genovese
I mix with the CS boys all the time and have done so for many years. I don't walk around with a "chip on my shoulder" and an "in your face" approach to southern revisionist history, which those who actually fought in the war rarely had, unlike the "Johnny Reb Come Lately's. The vast majority of Confederate veterans had no animosity towards their former Union foes. If the pro-Confederate folks would have been a little less concerned about personal honor and exercised a little more discretion, we might not have lost 620,000+ Americans a century and half ago.
 
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Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Location
Ann Arbor
Has Lincoln not be idolized by catch phrases such as "Honest Abe?" Lincoln has also been memorialized throughout our history as being a symbol of freedom, equality, and unity, yet his actions and words were often contrary to contemporary propaganda . Even Forest had a descendant that said, "You know Mr.Foote, my family never cared much for Mr. Lincoln!
If you have read anything on Lincoln you would know that he WAS honest. He was honest in expressing his conflicted feelings on slavery and black/white equality. Lincoln did not present himself as a demigod. Far from it. But Lincoln expressed many ideas and beliefs. Ideas and beliefs that often contradicted each other. Modern scholarship is now admitting that and Lincoln is being presented in a more accurate light. The BBC had a documentary on Lincoln some years detailing this.
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Location
Ann Arbor
Right the first time?? Hardly.

Sage wrote:

"Now, this raises a rather interesting and LOADED question. If a man such as Nathan Bedford Forrest could exhibit such a model of true spiritual conversion and Christian character, what does that say about those who are Southern Heritage zealots who profess Christianity and yet hold such resentment and express such venom for anything related to the Union?"

According to the letter I posted...the "Union" was defined by Abraham Lincoln as being the Republican Party. I know the content of the letter is difficult to swallow. According to Lincoln's letter and several other speeches, He interchangeably uses the goals of the "Union" with the goals of the "Republican Party." In fact in Lincoln's second inaugural address, he defines the "Union" as a mystical entity that existed before statehood AND Constitution.

I don't recall meeting anyone promoting Southern Heritage that "hates" our country, but I have met a multitude of Southerners that despise the "golden boy" image that Lincoln is given today. Lincoln did a lot of bad things, and they are recorded. His Cabinet did a lot of bad things. By 1875, Grant's administration was imploding and had become synonymous with the word CORRUPTION. Forest also happened to be alive with cognitive thought and witness much of this. Forest lost the war....yet his reputation and character were still intact...and people cared about what he thought. The nation as a whole...North and South...were through with Grant, and for different reasons.

My thoughts on Forest....he was a tactician to the end, not only in military affairs, but in politics and business. When he saw the futility of continuing the war, he surrendered, on his own choosing. He had reasons to abandon the KKK, when it no longer suited his goals. By 1875, he saw a real opportunity for his home state and the South, to regain power in the Federal government, so he had ever incentive to encourage people to cease hostilities, and go vote. By 1875 hardly any of the Radical Republicans were in power, which is quite ironic, particularly with the large number of ex-Confederates flowing into Congress.

In the future if you would like clarification don't be afraid to ask. A blanked accusation of "hijacking the thread" is tacky.
Lincoln did “ a lot of bad things”? Like what? Please list them. And whatever list you compile still pales in comparison to the great evil that the CSA defended. You criticizing Lincoln is akin to a descendent of a SS soldier criticizing Roosevelt for the fire bombings of German cities. I have no sympathy.
 
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MarylandLine

Sergeant
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Location
Northern California
To Bama46 and Nathanb1,

I only wish what you say about only a "few southerners hating the Union" were true. I can tell you from first hand experience that my immediate introduction to the reenactment world as portrayed by a large number of Southern Confederate reenactors was the onslaught of insults, degradation and demonization of anything Northern, Union, or Lincoln related.
Maybe the were trying to get into character for the time period! :D
 
Joined
Jun 29, 2011
Location
Ann Arbor
Wow, that’s the most encouraging news I’ve heard in a while.

"Certainly, I am devoted to the sentiment expressed in the bumper
sticker, Get your heart in Dixie or get your *ss out!”

Eugene Genovese
That quote from Genovese is ironic. The largest mass lynching in US history was of Italians by sons of Dixie in New Orleans. How any Italian can love a people who openly reviled them for decades(Catholic, darker skins) boggles the mind. My Italian grandfather told me of cross burnings in WV. I can only imagine what they did to Italians further South.
 

truthckr

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
Nov 1, 2010
Location
Waynesboro, Virginia
I obviously meant it in the pejorative sense, which is the most common usage. I disagree with your cynical assessment that "most people are opportunists."

Pejorative use:
Opportunist: a person who practices opportunism, or the policy of adapting actions, decisions, etc., to effectiveness regardless of the sacrifice of ethical principles: He is an extreme opportunist and always thinks the ends justify the means.

Positive use:
opportunist: a person who adapts his actions, responses, etc, to take advantage of opportunities, circumstances, etc

Pejorative example: He seized the opportunity to advance his own political career by deceiving the public.
Positive example: A student seized the opportunity to get a good education by studying hard. (Though you would not say a good student is an opportunist).

I think the historical facts bear out that Forrest was an opportunist in the pejorative sense.

Forrest lived in a corrupt society where few options for making a good honest living where available to him. The easiest way for him to personally advance himself economically was through the slave trade. This is somewhat understandable, given the circumstances, but it's certainly not something to be admired.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
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BillO

Captain
Joined
Feb 2, 2010
Location
Quinton, VA.
That quote from Genovese is ironic. The largest mass lynching in US history was of Italians by sons of Dixie in New Orleans. How any Italian can love a people who openly reviled them for decades(Catholic, darker skins) boggles the mind. My Italian grandfather told me of cross burnings in WV. I can only imagine what they did to Italians further South.
I usually just skim through these BS threads but this caught my eye. I haven't heard of this and I'm hoping you can let us know a little more about this.
 

bama46

Captain
To Bama46 and Nathanb1,

I only wish what you say about only a "few southerners hating the Union" were true. I can tell you from first hand experience that my immediate introduction to the reenactment world as portrayed by a large number of Southern Confederate reenactors was the onslaught of insults, degradation and demonization of anything Northern, Union, or Lincoln related. And, I am talking about bashing that was completely unprovoked, and that even includes those who portray Confederate chaplains. I received an education that I had not anticipated. The SCV and UDC are notorious for this sort of attitude, which is probably why I have met more ex-SCV members in recent years than current members. Yes! I am making a broad generalization but listen to what they are saying. Look at the literature they are pushing. Check out their book tables. "The Lost Cause" religion, if you will, is all over the Internet and Facebook. I have been to enough reenactments to know that this form of "Southern aggression" towards "Yankees" and anything related to them, is quite widespread and is doing great damage to the reenactment community---if you can call it a community. If it were a relative few, that would be one thing. But, it is not a relative few. It is a disturbing MANY!
I suggest if every southerner you meet demeans you, then you need to look inward for the cause. PS, I am a member of both the SCVand MOS&B and I will catagorically state that your comments vis a vis these organizations is untrue. Now, like other groups, there are extremists in the camps, but the vast majority of the men I have met and dealt with are not extremist.
 
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deleson1

Sergeant
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Location
michigan
To Bama46 and Nathanb1,

I only wish what you say about only a "few southerners hating the Union" were true. I can tell you from first hand experience that my immediate introduction to the reenactment world as portrayed by a large number of Southern Confederate reenactors was the onslaught of insults, degradation and demonization of anything Northern, Union, or Lincoln related. And, I am talking about bashing that was completely unprovoked, and that even includes those who portray Confederate chaplains. I received an education that I had not anticipated. The SCV and UDC are notorious for this sort of attitude, which is probably why I have met more ex-SCV members in recent years than current members. Yes! I am making a broad generalization but listen to what they are saying. Look at the literature they are pushing. Check out their book tables. "The Lost Cause" religion, if you will, is all over the Internet and Facebook. I have been to enough reenactments to know that this form of "Southern aggression" towards "Yankees" and anything related to them, is quite widespread and is doing great damage to the reenactment community---if you can call it a community. If it were a relative few, that would be one thing. But, it is not a relative few. It is a disturbing MANY!
Wow, I reenacted for over a dozen years and can probably count on both hands the amount of confederates who were hateful of yankess(for real, not acting in first person). The few i did encounter were extremist to the max, but i am sure their were a few extremist Yankees in our camps as well.
 
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CSA Today

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Location
Laurinburg NC
I mix with the CS boys all the time and have done so for many years. I don't walk around with a "chip on my shoulder" and an "in your face" approach to southern revisionist history, which those who actually fought in the war rarely had, unlike the "Johnny Reb Come Lately's. The vast majority of Confederate veterans had no animosity towards their former Union foes. If the pro-Confederate folks would have been a little less concerned about personal honor and exercised a little more discretion, we might not have lost 620,000+ Americans a century and half ago.
I would add that that power mad hypocrite A. Lincoln had an inordinate amount to with those 620,000 deaths as well.

"Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movements."

Abraham Lincoln January 12 1848
 

bellaray

Private
Joined
Aug 6, 2011
Location
North Georgia
Lincoln did “ a lot of bad things”? Like what? Please list them. And whatever list you compile still pales in comparison to the great evil that the CSA defended. You criticizing Lincoln is akin to a descendent of a SS soldier criticizing Roosevelt for the fire bombings of German cities. I have no sympathy.
The great evil?? you must mean slavery.

The House Divides pg. 441

As late as February 1864 he (Lincoln) held that the North and the South were equally responsible for slavery, and proposed to his cabinet a $ 400,000,000 appropriate for reimbursement, provided that hostilities ceased by April 1 of that year. The cabinet unanimously voted down the proposal, and Lincoln laid it aside, temporarily as he thought, but in reality permanently, for his assassination prevented its possible revival.

For something to be so evil, why do you suppose Lincoln would offer to help finance it??? His "cabinet" was opposed, yet didn't mind accumulating a debt of 4,200,000,000.00 (billion). The World book encyclopedia estimates total war debt and property to loss to be between 12 and 14 billion.

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/Articles/2011/04/12/Civil-War-at-150-Debt-Lessons-from-Lincoln.aspx#page1

You should check out the Time Life book Twenty Million Yankees. You can read some great excerpts, as to how Lincoln forced numerous immigrants (some of which were German) to enlist against their will, to fight his war for "freedom", and how he willfully turned a blind eye to the peddling of arms and military resources by his Cabinet Members. Perhaps the encouragement of Lincoln to have Sherman send Vermont troops to Ohio (from the Atlanta Campaign), to help stack the vote in Ohio state elections would be of interest to you? Or perhaps Lincoln threatening to fire ANY Federal employee that did not vote for him would be of interest??? I could add more, but I would like to encourage you to get the book and read it.

It must be of no shock to learn that Lincoln was willing to humiliate, degrade, imprison, and send so many Northerners to their deaths, which probably explains his "contradicting" views about life.
 
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