Forrest Forrest and Gould

K Hale

Colonel
Annual Winner
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Location
Texas
This has turned out to be really interesting, so I thought it deserved its own thread. It started here in post 56: http://civilwartalk.com/forums/camp...89-announcement-new-moderator-nathanb1-2.html

Google gave me this page, which seems to have a lot of detail: http://www.elmspringscsa.com/id17.html

That page also brings some new elements into the topic.

#1: The image of Forrest, half-dressed and bleeding, pistols in each hand, charging into the hospital shouting "Look out, look out!" as soldiers and doctors leaped out of the way, is... really striking.

#2: There seems to be some disagreement about who jumped who at the beginning of the fracas. However, if I were on the jury, I'd still call it self-defense on Forrest's part, given that he had an armed man standing in front of him making death threats.

#3: During the hospital rampage, Forrest accidentally shot a bystander, which is unfortunate to say the least. It doesn't say what happened to that guy, or whether anyone was sorry.

#4: It seems, at least according to this version, that Gould may have been in the right to protest accusations of cowardice. However, he took it a little far.
 
This has turned out to be really interesting, so I thought it deserved its own thread. It started here in post 56: http://civilwartalk.com/forums/camp...89-announcement-new-moderator-nathanb1-2.html

Google gave me this page, which seems to have a lot of detail: http://www.elmspringscsa.com/id17.html

That page also brings some new elements into the topic.

#1: The image of Forrest, half-dressed and bleeding, pistols in each hand, charging into the hospital shouting "Look out, look out!" as soldiers and doctors leaped out of the way, is... really striking.

#2: There seems to be some disagreement about who jumped who at the beginning of the fracas. However, if I were on the jury, I'd still call it self-defense on Forrest's part, given that he had an armed man standing in front of him making death threats.

#3: During the hospital rampage, Forrest accidentally shot a bystander, which is unfortunate to say the least. It doesn't say what happened to that guy, or whether anyone was sorry.

#4: It seems, at least according to this version, that Gould may have been in the right to protest accusations of cowardice. However, he took it a little far.

#1-- Wonder if there was some other verbiage thrown in with "Look out!" For anyone who hasn't been carefully educated by Larry and myself, Forrest was about 6'2", 180, and very, very loud--had to be quite a sight!

#2 -- I have to believe Gould did surprise him and "draw" first, otherwise I don't think he'd have gotten off a shot. You've got to give the guy credit for moxie, if not brains.

#3 -- Maybe Larry or Diane know what happened to the wounded guy?

#4 -- There's a lot to be said for diplomacy, isn't there? Especially when baiting a tiger.

According to John Morton, one of the things you NEVER did was lose one of Forrest's guns. Forrest was known to jump into a river to help move them across. He might lose some troops, but by golly, he was not gonna lose a gun.
 
And after I acquitted Forrest for self-defense, I'd send him to anger management classes. :smile: There are really two issues here... what happened before Forrest and Gould went at each other, and what happened after. Things went from self-defense to revenge, on a guy who was dying anyway, with innocent people being endangered and hurt.

Given that the guns were apparently lost due to the death of the battery horses, what should Gould have done to move them? It's feeling a bit like a Jackson/Garnett issue for me now. Maybe not at the same level, but the same sort of thing: Someone must be blamed...
 
And after I acquitted Forrest for self-defense, I'd send him to anger management classes. :smile: There are really two issues here... what happened before Forrest and Gould went at each other, and what happened after. Things went from self-defense to revenge, on a guy who was dying anyway, with innocent people being endangered and hurt.

Given that the guns were apparently lost due to the death of the battery horses, what should Gould have done to move them? It's feeling a bit like a Jackson/Garnett issue for me now. Maybe not at the same level, but the same sort of thing: Someone must be blamed...

I think the anger management thing might be the best answer. Forrest himself, as he got older (he died at the age of 55, which for many of us at this point seems quite young) regretted his temper. I will say that the Jackson/Garnett parallel seems pretty apt. From reading Morton, I know at times they literally picked up the guns off the caissons and carried them from place to place to avoid losing them, so I guess that's what Forrest expected, realistic or not. Let's just say the expectations of generals aren't always based on what's humanly possible...oh, isn't that where Jeff Shaara got the title for the book? Gods and ......
 
Here's my version of a classic Forrest story:

I've sometimes wondered what made 5'7" 130lb 26 year old Gould decide to even a score with 6'2" 185lb 43 year old Forrest who already had most of 30 previous challengers under his belt. It was like Opie Taylor meets the Terminator! There was a bit of a comic touch when the hapless provost marshal tried to stop Forrest - kind of put me in mind of Andy Devine in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Not to mention the soldiers standing in the room when he leaped to his feet with blood in his eye trying to block the door - "Get out of my way! No d--d man kills me and lives!" while seizing a pistol off one of them! Everybody cleared the path then.

I guess Gould figured honor demanded it - as I understand it, his fiancee was in Columbia and I bet that had a lot to do with his decision - he didn't want her to see him as a coward. Wills is the only Forrest biographer I've read who noticed Forrest's wife was also in Columbia, at a farmhouse outside of town. I would just bet she was waiting at the hotel when he came in, not exactly feeling the milk of human kindness towards the guy who he thought had fatally shot him. Once he knew it wasn't fatal he was gung-ho to save Gould - Mary was known to be able to gentle him down no matter how furious he was. (That would be some message to get, too. Here comes somebody thundering up to your house where all is calm and peace, announcing your husband just got shot and was currently stalking the streets with a pair of pistols, gunning for the sorry so-n-so who done it! She and Willie probably got into town just in time to hear the gun shots off downtown - well, son, I think we'll just go upstairs and wait to see if they carry him in or he walks in...)

Maybe Larry can tell us why there are about three versions of exactly where Forrest nailed Gould. I've read it was the right side between the ribs, in the stomach with a sideways rip, in the shoulder. If in the stomach that would seem he meant to kill Gould, and he'd told Morton he didn't. (Morton, by the way, had got wind of Gould's intention to confront Forrest and immediately leaped on a horse - he was pounding down the turnpike towards Columbia like Old Scratch was after him but he arrived too late to prevent the thing. He figured Gould would get the worst of it and he was right.) Hurst's description seems to be taken from the three little boys who were the only witnesses to what happened in the breezeway. (Along with every kid in town, they'd greeted Forrest when his troops came in with "It's General Forrest! Hey, General! Howdy, General!") According to Hurst, Forrest had turned to walk back to the quartermaster's office when Gould pulled his pistol, or tried to. It hung up on the lip of the pocket of his duster and went off when Forrest grabbed his wrist with his right hand. He then shoved his right shoulder into Gould's chest, his arm across his body to prevent him pulling some other weapon and pinned Gould's hand and gun against the wall upwards, pointing away. Forrest thus having him pinned against the wall with his weight, opened the pen knife he'd been carrying all along in his left hand with his teeth (and a good set of choppers he must have had!) and stabbed Gould in the shoulder. That's Hurst's version. I think if that one is correct, Forrest really didn't intend to kill Gould. It was the height difference of about 6 inches that made it fatal - a downward plunge instead of straight into the meat. That angle made it hit the lung and that was it for Gould. He did twist the blade which ripped sideways when Gould jerked away. The knife blade itself was about 4 inches long, not that small. Wyeth, on the other hand, says Forrest stabbed Gould in the stomach, twisted his blade and ripped sideways. OW! If that happened, then he certainly meant to kill the guy and fibbed to Morton.

I also think Forrest was sort of ok (I know!) with being shot until it appeared to be fatal. Having had more time to cool down and having retrieved his little brother, he was beginning to realize he might have been wrong but Gould acted before he could reconsider - which he might not have done anyway. He could be stubborn! Given their heated conversation and Gould's known hotheadedness, Forrest likely wasn't much surprised to be shot and returned the favor - I believe him when he said he hadn't intended to kill Gould at that time. When he was chasing him down the street that was another story! That's a strange visual in itself - Gould stumbled and staggered along holding whatever got stabbed, blood all over, and encountered his cousin the doctor. They ducked into a tailor's shop. Just then, Forrest strode out of the Masonic hall with his clothes all disheveled and blood drenching his pants leg, a gun in one hand and, grabbing another from a saddle holster, another in the other. Spying the crowd gathering at the tailor's shop, he headed that way. (Enter Andy Devine briefly.) The tailor heard the crowd murmuring and saw them looking up the street - he took a look, saw the wrath of the Almighty heading towards his little shop, and told Gould if he had somewhere to go he'd better go there, the general was outside. So, Gould rolled off the cutting table and was just blundering out the back door when Forrest came in the front, yelling, "Look out! Look out!" The spectators squawked like chickens and hit the deck while Forrest squeezed off a couple pretty close ones. The one that got the soldier in the yard was a ricochet off the brick wall outside the tailor's back door - just missed Gould's noggin. Seems to have been a deep graze rather than the bullet actually penetrating. It didn't really hurt the man too much, as I understand it, but it sure must have smarted right good! That's probably why Forrest never knew he hit anyone.

There's a lot of versions of the Forrest-Gould Affair, but it's one of the Civil War's best yarns! I heard the town of Columbia was thinking of setting up a plaque or memorial about it but don't know if they ever did it.
 
I've sometimes wondered what made 5'7" 130lb 26 year old Gould decide to even a score with 6'2" 185lb 43 year old Forrest who already had most of 30 previous challengers under his belt. It was like Opie Taylor meets the Terminator! There was a bit of a comic touch when the hapless provost marshal tried to stop Forrest - kind of put me in mind of Andy Devine in The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance. Not to mention the soldiers standing in the room when he leaped to his feet with blood in his eye trying to block the door - "Get out of my way! No d--d man kills me and lives!" while seizing a pistol off one of them! Everybody cleared the path then.

I guess Gould figured honor demanded it - as I understand it, his fiancee was in Columbia and I bet that had a lot to do with his decision - he didn't want her to see him as a coward. Wills is the only Forrest biographer I've read who noticed Forrest's wife was also in Columbia, at a farmhouse outside of town. I would just bet she was waiting at the hotel when he came in, not exactly feeling the milk of human kindness towards the guy who he thought had fatally shot him. Once he knew it wasn't fatal he was gung-ho to save Gould - Mary was known to be able to gentle him down no matter how furious he was. (That would be some message to get, too. Here comes somebody thundering up to your house where all is calm and peace, announcing your husband just got shot and was currently stalking the streets with a pair of pistols, gunning for the sorry so-n-so who done it! She and Willie probably got into town just in time to hear the gun shots off downtown - well, son, I think we'll just go upstairs and wait to see if they carry him in or he walks in...)

Maybe Larry can tell us why there are about three versions of exactly where Forrest nailed Gould. I've read it was the right side between the ribs, in the stomach with a sideways rip, in the shoulder. If in the stomach that would seem he meant to kill Gould, and he'd told Morton he didn't. (Morton, by the way, had got wind of Gould's intention to confront Forrest and immediately leaped on a horse - he was pounding down the turnpike towards Columbia like Old Scratch was after him but he arrived too late to prevent the thing. He figured Gould would get the worst of it and he was right.) Hurst's description seems to be taken from the three little boys who were the only witnesses to what happened in the breezeway. (Along with every kid in town, they'd greeted Forrest when his troops came in with "It's General Forrest! Hey, General! Howdy, General!") According to Hurst, Forrest had turned to walk back to the quartermaster's office when Gould pulled his pistol, or tried to. It hung up on the lip of the pocket of his duster and went off when Forrest grabbed his wrist with his right hand. He then shoved his right shoulder into Gould's chest, his arm across his body to prevent him pulling some other weapon and pinned Gould's hand and gun against the wall upwards, pointing away. Forrest thus having him pinned against the wall with his weight, opened the pen knife he'd been carrying all along in his left hand with his teeth (and a good set of choppers he must have had!) and stabbed Gould in the shoulder. That's Hurst's version. I think if that one is correct, Forrest really didn't intend to kill Gould. It was the height difference of about 6 inches that made it fatal - a downward plunge instead of straight into the meat. That angle made it hit the lung and that was it for Gould. He did twist the blade which ripped sideways when Gould jerked away. The knife blade itself was about 4 inches long, not that small. Wyeth, on the other hand, says Forrest stabbed Gould in the stomach, twisted his blade and ripped sideways. OW! If that happened, then he certainly meant to kill the guy and fibbed to Morton.

I also think Forrest was sort of ok (I know!) with being shot until it appeared to be fatal. Having had more time to cool down and having retrieved his little brother, he was beginning to realize he might have been wrong but Gould acted before he could reconsider - which he might not have done anyway. He could be stubborn! Given their heated conversation and Gould's known hotheadedness, Forrest likely wasn't much surprised to be shot and returned the favor - I believe him when he said he hadn't intended to kill Gould at that time. When he was chasing him down the street that was another story! That's a strange visual in itself - Gould stumbled and staggered along holding whatever got stabbed, blood all over, and encountered his cousin the doctor. They ducked into a tailor's shop. Just then, Forrest strode out of the Masonic hall with his clothes all disheveled and blood drenching his pants leg, a gun in one hand and, grabbing another from a saddle holster, another in the other. Spying the crowd gathering at the tailor's shop, he headed that way. (Enter Andy Devine briefly.) The tailor heard the crowd murmuring and saw them looking up the street - he took a look, saw the wrath of the Almighty heading towards his little shop, and told Gould if he had somewhere to go he'd better go there, the general was outside. So, Gould rolled off the cutting table and was just blundering out the back door when Forrest came in the front, yelling, "Look out! Look out!" The spectators squawked like chickens and hit the deck while Forrest squeezed off a couple pretty close ones. The one that got the soldier in the yard was a ricochet off the brick wall outside the tailor's back door - just missed Gould's noggin. Seems to have been a deep graze rather than the bullet actually penetrating. It didn't really hurt the man too much, as I understand it, but it sure must have smarted right good! That's probably why Forrest never knew he hit anyone.

There's a lot of versions of the Forrest-Gould Affair, but it's one of the Civil War's best yarns! I heard the town of Columbia was thinking of setting up a plaque or memorial about it but don't know if they ever did it.

#1--Everybody talks about Forrest's teeth and his amazing smile.....pretty astounding in that day and time of no orthodontics and pretty poor dentistry.

#2--I don't care how much you pay writers in Hollywood; they can NEVER make up anything this good

#3--This just gets better and better, and you're a heck of a storyteller!
 
Ladies, you seem to have this episode surrounded very well. I have only heard the story a couple of times. The building in which this happened still exists in downtown Columbia. Local Maury County Historian, ---- Dawson, I believe, but I need to look him up, is the local authority on this event. I don't recall a bystander being involved, but I don't discount that. Our SCV Camp hosted a Division Reunion two years ago and as part of our weekend, we did a tour of the Nashville City Cemetery where we added an iron cross to Lt. Gould's grave. From all accounts and his record, he was a soldier of some worth. He just lost his cool with the wrong man.
 
Ladies, you seem to have this episode surrounded very well. I have only heard the story a couple of times. The building in which this happened still exists in downtown Columbia. Local Maury County Historian, ---- Dawson, I believe, but I need to look him up, is the local authority on this event. I don't recall a bystander being involved, but I don't discount that. Our SCV Camp hosted a Division Reunion two years ago and as part of our weekend, we did a tour of the Nashville City Cemetery where we added an iron cross to Lt. Gould's grave. From all accounts and his record, he was a soldier of some worth. He just lost his cool with the wrong man.

John Morton seemed to think so. Didn't he pretty much say the incident Forrest was angry over wasn't necessarily Gould's fault? (You would think I could remember four days after I read it, but.....)
 
Details on Forrest - Gould affair

Here's our 'local' version in considerable detail. You'll need to scroll down just a bit. This is from the SCV whose national headquarters are close by at historic Elm Springs Mansion. Bob DUNCAN, county historian, wrote this article and is credited. He's the guy I called Dawson in the last post. (A good example of how accurate I really am!)

http://www.elmspringscsa.com/id17.html
 
Here's our 'local' version in considerable detail. You'll need to scroll down just a bit. This is from the SCV whose national headquarters are close by at historic Elm Springs Mansion. Bob DUNCAN, county historian, wrote this article and is credited. He's the guy I called Dawson in the last post. (A good example of how accurate I really am!)

http://www.elmspringscsa.com/id17.html

Mr. Cockerham: You are now responsible for causing me to waste another hour, as those stories were so great I had to read them all :smile: I thank you for finally giving us a look at Lt. Gould!
 
Here's our 'local' version in considerable detail. You'll need to scroll down just a bit. This is from the SCV whose national headquarters are close by at historic Elm Springs Mansion. Bob DUNCAN, county historian, wrote this article and is credited. He's the guy I called Dawson in the last post. (A good example of how accurate I really am!)

http://www.elmspringscsa.com/id17.html
That is the webpage I linked to in my first post. Glad to know it has some authority backing it up. It was just the first thing that came up on Google when I searched for "Forrest Gould stabbing."
 
Mr. Cockerham: You are now responsible for causing me to waste another hour, as those stories were so great I had to read them all :smile: I thank you for finally giving us a look at Lt. Gould!
LOL, did no one read my first post?
 
K Hale,

That site reminded me of something I read a while ago - another Forrest story! When he was laid up with his shot foot from Tupelo, he was staying at a widow's house. (Gosh, it's been awhile - let me see if I get this right!) The lady had a little girl, around 6 or so, and she sent the girl upstairs with a bowl of hot soup for the general. Just as the girl made it to the bedside she caught her toe on a rug and spilled the whole red-hot thing over Forrest's chest. He came up roaring, as one might expect, scared the bejabbers out of the kid and said a few things she probably ought not to have heard - but he immediately apologized, picked her up and pretty soon they were having a good old time playing together. He decided it would be beneficial to get himself downstairs for dinners - once with the boiling soup on the chest was enough! - so he spent his free time whittling him a crutch. Once he got it made he gave it a test run across the room to a window, the first time he'd been there. That's when he saw King Philip grazing in the back lot and it was love at first sight! Don't know if this story is true, lots of Forrest legends, but it's a good one anyway!

Morton was Gould's captain - he'd put in lots of good words for Gould and even told Forrest he believed he'd wronged Gould. He got his ears pinned back for it but decided he would say it again when Forrest's temper eased off. It seems to me that Forrest did realize maybe Gould couldn't have gotten the guns after all and had done the best he could, but now that he had ordered the lieutenant's transfer it wouldn't be good appearances to back off of it. If Gould had cooled his heels a little, chances are Morton might have been able to fix it with Forrest. Morton said somewhere in his account of the affair that he regretted losing a fine officer, so Gould did have merit.
 
It's always a good idea to chill the heck out and think a minute.

What is not a good idea is sending six-year-olds to serve soup.
 
Gould was a lieutenant. Morton was Captain of artillery. Yes, from all I've seen, Gould was ok, just picked a bad time to throw a fit.
 
I posted the same link that Larry did, with the photo of Gould. :wink:

Very sorry to repeat your excellent find. I did read your post, believe it or not. In an unmercifully long academic career, I actually read many books, but seemed to have missed the details in most of them. Glad to know I'm consistent. I've met Mr. Duncan (now that I remember his name) a couple of times and he has presented his story to our camp. He's one of those guys who spends years digging details out of the woodwork. Since he's there in Columbia, I suspect he should be believed. He flys with eagles, unlike the crew with which you'll find me. (Present company excepted.)
 
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