First Bull Run First Manassas prophet

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anyexcuse

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Hi all!
I am definitely not a Seventh Day Adventist, but I was pointed to this quote by their prophet Ellen White. I think she wrote it in 1862. What do you think? Does she add insights you hadn't thought of before? Was she accurate?

The North and the South were presented before me. The North have been deceived in regard to the South. They are better prepared for war than has been represented. Most of their men are well skilled in the use of arms, some of them from experience in battle, others from habitual sporting. They have the advantage of the North in this respect, but have not, as a general thing, the valor and the power of endurance that Northern men have. {1T 266.2}

I had a view of the disastrous battle at Manassas, Virginia. It was a most exciting, distressing scene. The Southern army had everything in their favor and were prepared for a dreadful contest. The Northern army was moving on with triumph, not doubting but that they would be victorious. Many were reckless and marched forward boastingly, as though victory were already theirs. As they neared the battlefield, many were almost fainting through weariness and want of refreshment. They did not expect so fierce an encounter. They
267
rushed into battle and fought bravely, desperately. The dead and dying were on every side. Both the North and the South suffered severely. The Southern men felt the battle, and in a little while would have been driven back still further. The Northern men were rushing on, although their destruction was very great. Just then an angel descended and waved his hand backward. Instantly there was confusion in the ranks. It appeared to the Northern men that their troops were retreating, when it was not so in reality, and a precipitate retreat commenced. This seemed wonderful to me. {1T 266.3}

Then it was explained that God had this nation in His own hand, and would not suffer victories to be gained faster than He ordained, and would permit no more losses to the Northern men than in His wisdom He saw fit, to punish them for their sins. And had the Northern army at this time pushed the battle still further in their fainting, exhausted condition, the far greater struggle and destruction which awaited them would have caused great triumph in the South. God would not permit this, and sent an angel to interfere. The sudden falling back of the Northern troops is a mystery to all. They know not that God's hand was in the matter. {1T 267.1}

The destruction of the Southern army was so great that they had no heart to boast. The sight of the dead, the dying, and the wounded gave them but little courage to triumph. This destruction, occurring when they had every advantage, and the North great disadvantage, caused them much perplexity. They know that if the North have an equal chance with them, victory is certain for the North. Their only hope is to occupy positions difficult of approach, and then have formidable arrangements to hurl destruction on every hand. {1T 267.2}
 

M E Wolf

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Dear Anyexcuse:

This website seemingly puts holes through Ellen White's predictions and a fellow by the name of:Joseph Smith via this written 29 years prior is seemingly more meat in the prediction due to span of time and key words.

Ellen White being so near to the actual events, could have overheard many discussions by men; being council to men and advising them; common sense as well as events unfolding from President Andrew Jackson on through to Lincoln's running--war was bound to happen and; the Mexican War was often reported with good description and in between the lines messages.

Revelation and Prophecy on War, December 25, 1832
Joseph Smith, Doctrines and Covenants, page 144
1. Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
. . . .
3. For behold, the Southern Sates shall be divided against the Northern States, and the nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations against other nations in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

I am more comfortable with Smith's prediction rather then Whites.

And, I am ever more impressed with Notradamus' predictions of the War of Independence and American Civil War. (Circa 1500's)

I've even been told that I've predicted things as if I wrote a script of things--[shrugs] ((Caught a few criminals that way too... predicting human behavior and the territory predicting events and routes of escape. I'm no Sylvia Browne though.))

Just my thoughts and opinions,
M. E. Wolf

Link reference:
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw46.htm
 

anyexcuse

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Joined
Nov 18, 2008
Messages
75
Location
Minnesota
Dear Anyexcuse:

This website seemingly puts holes through Ellen White's predictions and a fellow by the name of:Joseph Smith via this written 29 years prior is seemingly more meat in the prediction due to span of time and key words.

Ellen White being so near to the actual events, could have overheard many discussions by men; being council to men and advising them; common sense as well as events unfolding from President Andrew Jackson on through to Lincoln's running--war was bound to happen and; the Mexican War was often reported with good description and in between the lines messages.

Revelation and Prophecy on War, December 25, 1832
Joseph Smith, Doctrines and Covenants, page 144
1. Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
. . . .
3. For behold, the Southern Sates shall be divided against the Northern States, and the nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations against other nations in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.

I am more comfortable with Smith's prediction rather then Whites.

And, I am ever more impressed with Notradamus' predictions of the War of Independence and American Civil War. (Circa 1500's)

I've even been told that I've predicted things as if I wrote a script of things--[shrugs] ((Caught a few criminals that way too... predicting human behavior and the territory predicting events and routes of escape. I'm no Sylvia Browne though.))

Just my thoughts and opinions,
M. E. Wolf

Link reference:
http://www.ellenwhiteexposed.com/egw46.htm
Thanks, sounds like Joseph Smith's predictions were better than White's.

I thought the Northern armies were driven back at Bull Run because of the reinforcement by Joseph Johnston, and Stonewall Jackson's famous stand. I'm not sure the Federals being driven back is a "mystery to all".

I thought it interesting to she said the Southerners didn't have the valor and stamina the Northerners did. I don't know about that.....

Is it true the Confederates were disheartened because of the destruction and casualties the battle caused them?
 
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ole

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Is it true the Confederates were disheartened because of the destruction and casualties the battle caused them?
There are few things that hearten a soldier more than seeing the enemy fall all over themselves while running away.
 

M E Wolf

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Dear Anyexcuse;

Well, I just got done with my research on the First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas.

What was the whole mess of it all, was that both sides were totally unprepared. There wasn't such a huge tear between the Federal Government and the rebellious states in a 'confederation' form of government before. Nobody was prepared for members of the US Army, Navy and Marines to exit the service abruptly as to go to the 'enemy' aka CSA side. Many a friendship were split over the two choices. General Robert E. Lee; struggled but--sided with his family and 'country' being the Commonwealth of Virginia. Yet, some members of the 'extended' Lee clan fought for the Union. General W. T. Sherman, lived in Louisiana and could see the folly of the rebellion, as the rebellious states just weren't organized or geared to mass produce ordnance, and or other war materials, etc.

President Lincoln being sworn into office; Congress out on vacation; firing on Fort Sumter; previous attacks and take overs of Federal arsenals in the rebellious states; then got General Beauregard assembling troops in mass in Manassas, Virginia--approximately 12 miles from Washington, DC. General Winfield Scott, an aged General and too frail to lead the army himself created the battle plan but; politics selected Brig. General Irwin McDowell who never had real close combat or field command is given this hot potato in his lap; citizens, US Congress and big wigs are scared of an coup`; General Scott had to quickly seize the Virginia heights making a buffer between the enemy and the Capitol; the call for troops--which were made up of militias and groups formed, bought and paid for by citizens, e.g. Sykles and like men; without any military discipline or experiences though with good intentions; some old veterans doing the same with militas and volunteers--coming in with no uniformity of uniforms--neither did the Confederates; and why so many incidents of friendly fire at First Bull Run/Manassas. You had a diminished regular US Army that was rather small and out West that suddenly had to come East. That took time. The Confederates had to form an army from scratch which is easier than modifying an existing one.

But both sides of the battle at First Bull Run/Manassas was fought by individuals that thought the conflict would not last beyond 90 days. Military veterans--officers--knew better. The approach was grand--both armies playing marches, parading--only when people started dying and blown to bits; did the sight-seers on the side lines saw the prelude to the bloody history unfold. Before First Bull Run/Manassas; war in Mexico, in the West was filled with flowery language, heros and romance--not the ugly side of war, killing, limbs blown off, disfigured souls, wild eyes and rage charging into you, etc. The photograph was invented and would be the first American War photographed. Mathew Brady would be at First Bull Run documenting the battle but, in the Union rout and panic--his camera, plates and such were lost. He would come back when things were safe in Union hands in 1862 and 'pose' shots as he remembered them to be. Some photos made by Brady or Sullivan; would show the real tragedy --Union soldiers left unburied, bones bleeched as they were 'disrespected,' whereas the CSA dead were immediately buried.

I agree that General Johnson's appearing along with General Kirby Smith using the Orange & Alexandria Railroad to troop transport; another American military first--made the CSA strength sudden and timely; as they used Manassas Junction extremely close to the battlefield they were there like the snap of a finger.

The Union/Federal Army did not have the use of the railroad secured at that time. However, the war would make use of the Alexandria, Loudoun & Hampshire Railroad by time Second Bull Run/Manassas came to pass. The Alexandria, Loudoun & Hampshire Railroad would become Washington & Old Dominion Railroad and this small short line would finally close in 1968. This railroad aka 'road' would be the first to convert railroad passenger cars into 'hospital cars.'

Both military armies also had 'untrained' and 'unseasoned' volunteers and new recruits. In the case of the battalion of US Marines that marched in McDowell's Army; they hadn't learned their facings, etc., and had bloody blistered feet from marching from the Marine Corps Barracks at 8th & I. SE, across the Long Bridge (Md Av. SE & I. Street SE in DC to the CSX bridge connection to Virginia's shore); to Ft. Jackson at what would be the Virginia side of 14th Street Bridge. The 1861 Modified Manual for the US Army stated in short; that an Army was to be able to march 20 miles, with only short breaks and time for lunch; before making camp for the night and be up by 2 AM as to be ready to assemble in an hour; to be ready to march hours later.

This is why McDowell had to go slowly; in addition being in enemy territory; as he marched on Old Columbia Turnpike to Little River Turnpike to camp overnight at Pagett's Tavern (NE Corner of Rt. 236 Little River Turnpike and Old Columbia Pike). And from that place to march seven miles to Fairfax Court House, he had to rest his troops for 36 hours before marching to Centerville to camp there and finally to the battlefield on the 21st of July.

The battle was going well in the beginning for McDowell's Army but; the lack of discipline of multiple regiments and battalions made up of volunteers caused confusion as much as the confusion over uniforms. When you loose discipline you loose control of a body of men (and the few women in the rank and files of both armies); you can't conduct a tidy campaign. You have panic--And, both armies suffered from panic. Most never seen battle before.

On top of that--the 'peanut gallery' of Congressmen, citizens out on a picnic start a panic and crossing a bridge designed for one carriage at a time--well; that was like trying to put a Peterbuilt tractor and trailer through the exhaust pipe of a "Smart Car." Carriages break down, clog roads; the rest can be imagined like grid-lock in city traffic.

There were many circumstances that caused what happened 'to happen.'

The advantage was the CSA; being on 'home ground,' knowing the Bull Run (body of water) and its undertows and shallows and sudden drops; the height of the mountains and the speed of information/intelligence via carrier, telegraphs and signals. The operational railroad hauling troops up quickly up through Virginia from Orange County to Manassas and Warrenton Junction. Various picket lines from Bailey's Cross Roads, Vienna, Munson Hill, Mason Hill, Fairfax Court House--all telegraphed the movements of the Union Army of McDowell's. The railroad right-of-way for the 'future' Independent Line of Manassas Gap Railroad--had no ties or rails but--made a super highway (being cleared, leveled and graded) for cavalry and couriers.

This all at the First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas.

Documented by a Confederate Surgeon; formerly of the US Marines during Bull Run/Manassas; the US Marines were the only ones who made it past Stonewall's guns, into the thickets and pines behind Jackson's lines. Some of these Marines knew him and he knew them.

The Battle of First Bull Run, would be the first all land/Infantry engagement of the US Marines in the American Civil War. It is amazing how Major John George Reynolds (USMC) shepherd his raw Marines as well as he did.

This fact is usually never told. Yet, there could be many more untold stories of fractures in the story of both sides of the First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas. But, from that day--I believe the thought of just a 90 day rebellion was wiped off the minds of everybody; as the Federal Military with volunteer regiments proved that they were resolved to dispute the CSA stance.

Notradomus still holds my interest at being able to predict events in the future. Of course he had to mask these predictions in code; or he would have been killed for it. People have often retold stories of other profits and make them their own. And, Smith was more on que than White.

But, I am sure people have a 'sixth sense,' or 'feeling/instincts.'

Second Lieutenant Hitchcock (USMC) 'sensed' and told his fellow officers that he felt he wouldn't be coming back alive, in regard to the up coming battle assignment. So, before the march he gave his personal possessions to an officer that remained at the Washington Barracks. He would, as he predicted--be killed instantly by a CSA shell, and further dismembered by a second shell and tearing a limb off of a Marine grasping the falling body of Second Lieutenant Hitchcock. He would also be the first officer from Rhode Island to be killed in the American Civil War.

On June 30th, 1861--Captain John Marr of the CSA Army; a sheriff from Warrenton; would be the first CSA officer killed and the first officer of the CSA Army from Virginia killed; in a skirmish at Fairfax Court-house.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
 
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anyexcuse

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Messages
75
Location
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Dear Anyexcuse;

Well, I just got done with my research on the First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas.

What was the whole mess of it all, was that both sides were totally unprepared. There wasn't such a huge tear between the Federal Government and the rebellious states in a 'confederation' form of government before. Nobody was prepared for members of the US Army, Navy and Marines to exit the service abruptly as to go to the 'enemy' aka CSA side. Many a friendship were split over the two choices. General Robert E. Lee; struggled but--sided with his family and 'country' being the Commonwealth of Virginia. Yet, some members of the 'extended' Lee clan fought for the Union. General W. T. Sherman, lived in Louisiana and could see the folly of the rebellion, as the rebellious states just weren't organized or geared to mass produce ordnance, and or other war materials, etc.

President Lincoln being sworn into office; Congress out on vacation; firing on Fort Sumter; previous attacks and take overs of Federal arsenals in the rebellious states; then got General Beauregard assembling troops in mass in Manassas, Virginia--approximately 12 miles from Washington, DC. General Winfield Scott, an aged General and too frail to lead the army himself created the battle plan but; politics selected Brig. General Irwin McDowell who never had real close combat or field command is given this hot potato in his lap; citizens, US Congress and big wigs are scared of an coup`; General Scott had to quickly seize the Virginia heights making a buffer between the enemy and the Capitol; the call for troops--which were made up of militias and groups formed, bought and paid for by citizens, e.g. Sykles and like men; without any military discipline or experiences though with good intentions; some old veterans doing the same with militas and volunteers--coming in with no uniformity of uniforms--neither did the Confederates; and why so many incidents of friendly fire at First Bull Run/Manassas. You had a diminished regular US Army that was rather small and out West that suddenly had to come East. That took time. The Confederates had to form an army from scratch which is easier than modifying an existing one.

But both sides of the battle at First Bull Run/Manassas was fought by individuals that thought the conflict would not last beyond 90 days. Military veterans--officers--knew better. The approach was grand--both armies playing marches, parading--only when people started dying and blown to bits; did the sight-seers on the side lines saw the prelude to the bloody history unfold. Before First Bull Run/Manassas; war in Mexico, in the West was filled with flowery language, heros and romance--not the ugly side of war, killing, limbs blown off, disfigured souls, wild eyes and rage charging into you, etc. The photograph was invented and would be the first American War photographed. Mathew Brady would be at First Bull Run documenting the battle but, in the Union rout and panic--his camera, plates and such were lost. He would come back when things were safe in Union hands in 1862 and 'pose' shots as he remembered them to be. Some photos made by Brady or Sullivan; would show the real tragedy --Union soldiers left unburied, bones bleeched as they were 'disrespected,' whereas the CSA dead were immediately buried.

I agree that General Johnson's appearing along with General Kirby Smith using the Orange & Alexandria Railroad to troop transport; another American military first--made the CSA strength sudden and timely; as they used Manassas Junction extremely close to the battlefield they were there like the snap of a finger.

The Union/Federal Army did not have the use of the railroad secured at that time. However, the war would make use of the Alexandria, Loudoun & Hampshire Railroad by time Second Bull Run/Manassas came to pass. The Alexandria, Loudoun & Hampshire Railroad would become Washington & Old Dominion Railroad and this small short line would finally close in 1968. This railroad aka 'road' would be the first to convert railroad passenger cars into 'hospital cars.'

Both military armies also had 'untrained' and 'unseasoned' volunteers and new recruits. In the case of the battalion of US Marines that marched in McDowell's Army; they hadn't learned their facings, etc., and had bloody blistered feet from marching from the Marine Corps Barracks at 8th & I. SE, across the Long Bridge (Md Av. SE & I. Street SE in DC to the CSX bridge connection to Virginia's shore); to Ft. Jackson at what would be the Virginia side of 14th Street Bridge. The 1861 Modified Manual for the US Army stated in short; that an Army was to be able to march 20 miles, with only short breaks and time for lunch; before making camp for the night and be up by 2 AM as to be ready to assemble in an hour; to be ready to march hours later.

This is why McDowell had to go slowly; in addition being in enemy territory; as he marched on Old Columbia Turnpike to Little River Turnpike to camp overnight at Pagett's Tavern (NE Corner of Rt. 236 Little River Turnpike and Old Columbia Pike). And from that place to march seven miles to Fairfax Court House, he had to rest his troops for 36 hours before marching to Centerville to camp there and finally to the battlefield on the 21st of July.

The battle was going well in the beginning for McDowell's Army but; the lack of discipline of multiple regiments and battalions made up of volunteers caused confusion as much as the confusion over uniforms. When you loose discipline you loose control of a body of men (and the few women in the rank and files of both armies); you can't conduct a tidy campaign. You have panic--And, both armies suffered from panic. Most never seen battle before.

On top of that--the 'peanut gallery' of Congressmen, citizens out on a picnic start a panic and crossing a bridge designed for one carriage at a time--well; that was like trying to put a Peterbuilt tractor and trailer through the exhaust pipe of a "Smart Car." Carriages break down, clog roads; the rest can be imagined like grid-lock in city traffic.

There were many circumstances that caused what happened 'to happen.'

The advantage was the CSA; being on 'home ground,' knowing the Bull Run (body of water) and its undertows and shallows and sudden drops; the height of the mountains and the speed of information/intelligence via carrier, telegraphs and signals. The operational railroad hauling troops up quickly up through Virginia from Orange County to Manassas and Warrenton Junction. Various picket lines from Bailey's Cross Roads, Vienna, Munson Hill, Mason Hill, Fairfax Court House--all telegraphed the movements of the Union Army of McDowell's. The railroad right-of-way for the 'future' Independent Line of Manassas Gap Railroad--had no ties or rails but--made a super highway (being cleared, leveled and graded) for cavalry and couriers.

This all at the First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas.

Documented by a Confederate Surgeon; formerly of the US Marines during Bull Run/Manassas; the US Marines were the only ones who made it past Stonewall's guns, into the thickets and pines behind Jackson's lines. Some of these Marines knew him and he knew them.

The Battle of First Bull Run, would be the first all land/Infantry engagement of the US Marines in the American Civil War. It is amazing how Major John George Reynolds (USMC) shepherd his raw Marines as well as he did.

This fact is usually never told. Yet, there could be many more untold stories of fractures in the story of both sides of the First Battle of Bull Run/Manassas. But, from that day--I believe the thought of just a 90 day rebellion was wiped off the minds of everybody; as the Federal Military with volunteer regiments proved that they were resolved to dispute the CSA stance.

Notradomus still holds my interest at being able to predict events in the future. Of course he had to mask these predictions in code; or he would have been killed for it. People have often retold stories of other profits and make them their own. And, Smith was more on que than White.

But, I am sure people have a 'sixth sense,' or 'feeling/instincts.'

Second Lieutenant Hitchcock (USMC) 'sensed' and told his fellow officers that he felt he wouldn't be coming back alive, in regard to the up coming battle assignment. So, before the march he gave his personal possessions to an officer that remained at the Washington Barracks. He would, as he predicted--be killed instantly by a CSA shell, and further dismembered by a second shell and tearing a limb off of a Marine grasping the falling body of Second Lieutenant Hitchcock. He would also be the first officer from Rhode Island to be killed in the American Civil War.

On June 30th, 1861--Captain John Marr of the CSA Army; a sheriff from Warrenton; would be the first CSA officer killed and the first officer of the CSA Army from Virginia killed; in a skirmish at Fairfax Court-house.

Just some thoughts.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
Thank you sir! I have read descriptions of the battle but you have went beyond to explain why things happened as they did.
I didn't know any Marines were there, nor have I ever heard of their involvement in the CW. I've mostly read about the western and some southern battles, and don't remember them being mentioned.
I hadn't thought of the "home ground" aspect of the battle either. I'm sure the volenteers on neither side were ready for the noise and confusion of a major battle.
Thank you for your patience and well written reply!
R.E.Hansen
 
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Messages
475
Visions or Hallucinations?

Hi all!
I am definitely not a Seventh Day Adventist, but I was pointed to this quote by their prophet Ellen White. I think she wrote it in 1862. What do you think? Does she add insights you hadn't thought of before? Was she accurate?
Having a mother who is a devout Seventh Day Adventist, and having been raised in that religion, I remember some things about Ellen G. White.

As a child, I'm thinking around 10 or 11 years old, she was injured when another youngster threw a rock that hit her in the head. As I recall, she was unconscious (probably comatose) for an extended period of time, weeks at least, possibly months. It was sometime after she recovered that she began reporting visions of a spiritual nature.

It is very probable that Ellen suffered a serious brain injury that resulted in her becoming a prophetess, and who can say if her visions were actually visions, or hallucinations? And is there a difference? A hallucination, as far as I know, is regarded as being delusional in nature, while visions seem to be thought of as having come from outside one's own mind.

This is the first I've heard that Ellen White had anything to say about the Civil War, but from what I've read here, her remarks about it seem to be more hindsight than anything else. While I don't recall ever reading anything that Mrs. White wrote, I heard a lot about her in church, and for a child (which I was at the time) the lady could be downright scary.

I think she was a good woman, and that she believed the things she experienced were real, and maybe they were. Some years ago my mother left the Adventist church because she had come to believe that their teachings focused on Mrs. White's writings more than on the Bible. But she eventually returned to the church, I guess because her belief in Saturday as the day God set aside for rest and prayer was stronger than her concern about Ellen White's impact on Adventist teachings.
 

M E Wolf

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Messages
17,457
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Dear Leah's Choice;

Thank you for adding more depth than just White's writings. You make it more interesting and much more informative. This is exactly what we need in learning history. Looking calmly into every aspects and in my case, a feeble attempt to look through the eyes of the participants, ma'am.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
 
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Dear Leah's Choice;

Thank you for adding more depth than just White's writings. You make it more interesting and much more informative. This is exactly what we need in learning history. Looking calmly into every aspects and in my case, a feeble attempt to look through the eyes of the participants, ma'am.

Respectfully submitted for consideration,
M. E. Wolf
What a nice thing to say. Thank you, M.E.

The things you post are far from being feeble attempts. I believe you add a lot to this forum.

Leah
 
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