Famous cannon was at siege

Thanks for your input and any Whitworth fan is all right with me. It make sense that when the Union was policing the area and garrisoning it that they would only want to keep guns that they could readily provide ammunition for and not any of the "odd ducks", which they sent off to storage at arsenals.
 
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Thanks for your input and any Whitworth fan is all right with me. It make sense that when the Union was policing the area and garrisoning it that they would want to keep guns that they could readily provide ammunition for and not any of the "odd ducks", which they sent off to storage at arsenals.

I have one of the Whitworth bolts fired from Snyders Bluff, presumably at the Tyler on May 1, 1863. Its one of my favorite projectiles and means the world to me.
I bought it many years ago from an elderly black man who farmed in the area. He had plowed up 6 or 8 projectiles and had put them in a wooden pig trough. Some relic hunter came along when the farmer was gone and "took" all the round shells and obvious rifle shells and/or bolts, but left the Whitworth, apparently not realizing that it was a rare artillery projectile!
 
Y'all are going to go blind looking at all those numbers.:confused:
 
I have one of the Whitworth bolts fired from Snyders Bluff, presumably at the Tyler on May 1, 1863. Its one of my favorite projectiles and means the world to me.
I bought it many years ago from an elderly black man who farmed in the area. He had plowed up 6 or 8 projectiles and had put them in a wooden pig trough. Some relic hunter came along when the farmer was gone and "took" all the round shells and obvious rifle shells and/or bolts, but left the Whitworth, apparently not realizing that it was a rare artillery projectile!
The "Pig" was the one that took the man's finds.
 
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I was holding this little tidbit for my artillery presentation at the gathering in October, but I'll share it now: According to Ms. Elizabeth Hoxie Joyner who was the former curator of the Vicksburg NMP Collections and author of A Field Guide to The Artillery of Vicksburg National Military Park, there are only three pieces in the Vicksburg area that have an ironclad provenance to the siege. One is found in the lobby of the visitor's center (a 12# howitzer-Union), one is in the lobby of the Vicksburg Convention Center (a 3" Rifle-Confederate made in Vicksburg) and of course The Widow Blakely (a 7.5" Blakely Rifle-Confederate) which spent 96 years on display at West Point before being returned to Vicksburg. Perhaps of most interest is that perhaps the most famous gun at Vicksburg-"Whistling Dick" a Confederate banded and rifled 18# that was credited with sinking the U.S.S. Cincinnati was either: A. dumped into the Mississippi River or B. buried in a local cave as after the battle it never showed up on an inventory of captured ordnance.
The above was taken during the Vicksburg Sesquicentennial in 2013; here are a couple of earlier photos of the Widow at Louisiana Circle from an even earlier visit in 1981:

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I'm loving this discussion between our artillery experts.

I don't know enough to even comment, but from everything I've read, I have seen stats on the Confederate artillery lost during the Vicksburg Campaign.

Each account is slightly different.

From Bearss to Grabau, and others . . . the exact number of lost field pieces don't match.

I understand this.

Not much time to keep records during Grant's unexpected amphibious assault at Bruinsburg, the rapid battles at Grand Gulf, Port Gibson, Raymond, Champion's Hill, Jackson and the Big Black River.

However, the inventory of heavy artillery that was abandoned along the Yazoo River emplacements leaves me scratching my head.

Yeah, I understand the logistics involved with moving such large guns down to Vicksburg on short notice, but I've wondered why at least a few of these guns couldn't have been moved into the Vicksburg defensive works.
 
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There are any number of why didn't they do (fill in the blank) at all Civil War battles and Vicksburg certainly has more than it's share. While the logistics of moving heavy weapons is certainly a consideration, in this case it may be more of a problem of moving anything when you are running for your life. Along the riverfront there was 42 light, heavy guns and mortars covering a distance of less than 3 miles and they had the river pretty well covered from their established positions. And I guess that they didn't feel the need for heavy weapons on the front lines. Here is a map showing the coverage of the river from the shore installations. Map from LoC
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So what was The Lady Florence?
 
I was holding this little tidbit for my artillery presentation at the gathering in October, but I'll share it now: According to Ms. Elizabeth Hoxie Joyner who was the former curator of the Vicksburg NMP Collections and author of A Field Guide to The Artillery of Vicksburg National Military Park, there are only three pieces in the Vicksburg area that have an ironclad provenance to the siege. One is found in the lobby of the visitor's center (a 12# howitzer-Union), one is in the lobby of the Vicksburg Convention Center (a 3" Rifle-Confederate made in Vicksburg) and of course The Widow Blakely (a 7.5" Blakely Rifle-Confederate) which spent 96 years on display at West Point before being returned to Vicksburg. Perhaps of most interest is that perhaps the most famous gun at Vicksburg-"Whistling Dick" a Confederate banded and rifled 18# that was credited with sinking the U.S.S. Cincinnati was either: A. dumped into the Mississippi River or B. buried in a local cave as after the battle it never showed up on an inventory of captured ordnance.
Interesting that Joyner does not mention the 32-pounder Navy gun. It would seem to me that Ripley's analysis is solid. I did not know about the howitzer and the 3' rifle. By the way Tompre was saying that a park ranger thinks that one of the (Confederate) Whitworth rifles (there were two I think in the batteries ) were buried in the vicinity of the 2nd Texas Lunette ( Jewish Cemetery).
 
Interesting that Joyner does not mention the 32-pounder Navy gun. It would seem to me that Ripley's analysis is solid. I did not know about the howitzer and the 3' rifle. By the way Tompre was saying that a park ranger thinks that one of the (Confederate) Whitworth rifles (there were two I think in the batteries ) were buried in the vicinity of the 2nd Texas Lunette ( Jewish Cemetery).
Ms. Joyner covers it, but not in the context of having served at Vicksburg and as John Wayne Brady rightly pointed out to me, there were two Whitworths at Vicksburg; one in the river batteries and one in the siege line. And who knows, maybe the stories are true that a Whitworth and Whistling Dick were both buried and one day may be found.
 
I'm loving this discussion between our artillery experts.

I don't know enough to even comment, but from everything I've read, I have seen stats on the Confederate artillery lost during the Vicksburg Campaign.

Each account is slightly different.

From Bearss to Grabau, and others . . . the exact number of lost field pieces don't match.

I understand this.

Not much time to keep records during Grant's unexpected amphibious assault at Bruinsburg, the rapid battles at Grand Gulf, Port Gibson, Raymond, Champion's Hill, Jackson and the Big Black River.

However, the inventory of heavy artillery that was abandoned along the Yazoo River emplacements leaves me scratching my head.

Yeah, I understand the logistics involved with moving such large guns down to Vicksburg on short notice, but I've wondered why at least a few of these guns couldn't have been moved into the Vicksburg defensive works.

Some were moved from Snyders to Vicksburg at the last minute. The Whitworth was only one of them.
The heaviest pieces simply would have taken too long to move and had to be abandoned, but a number of lighter pieces were taken into Vicksburg.

The fine details of how this all went down are a whole other (and to me interesting) story.
Maybe some other time.
 
Ms. Joyner covers it, but not in the context of having served at Vicksburg and as John Wayne Brady rightly pointed out to me, there were two Whitworths at Vicksburg; one in the river batteries and one in the siege line. And who knows, maybe the stories are true that a Whitworth and Whistling Dick were both buried and one day may be found.

I too have long (going back at least to the early 80's) heard stories about the "disabled" Whitworth having been buried along Gen. John C. Moore's line and perhaps in what is today the Jewish cemetery (in 1863 the Second Texas Lunette area). I am not sure what to think about this story. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not.
I have to admit that I wish it was true, for a lot of reasons.
One being that if the piece was ever recovered, we might find out exactly how it was disabled. I doubt that the tube actually burst, but who know for sure.
 
I too have long (going back at least to the early 80's) heard stories about the "disabled" Whitworth having been buried along Gen. John C. Moore's line and perhaps in what is today the Jewish cemetery (in 1863 the Second Texas Lunette area). I am not sure what to think about this story. Perhaps it is true, perhaps not.
I have to admit that I wish it was true, for a lot of reasons.
One being that if the piece was ever recovered, we might find out exactly how it was disabled. I doubt that the tube actually burst, but who know for sure.
The weak points of the Whitworth seemed to be either the carriage breaking or the breech mechanism failing, I've never seen an account of a barrel failing but both Brookes on the river line had their barrels burst so a burst barrel is a possibility, also if they were using Confederate copies of the Whitworth rounds; these weren't very good and one may have become lodged in the bore, but why bury it? If the Confederates were starving and weak, that seems to be a lot of energy to expend.
 
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The weak points of the Whitworth seemed to be either the carriage breaking or the breech mechanism failing, I've never seen an account of a barrel failing but both Brookes on the river line had their barrels burst so a burst barrel is a possibility, also if they were using Confederate copies of the Whitworth rounds; these weren't very good and one may have become lodged in the bore, but why bury it? If the Confederates were starving and weak, that seems to be a lot of energy to expend.

i agree with you on all points. Although Brooke rifles have very little in common with Whitworths in terms of bursting the barrels or tubes.

I think that the story of burying the Whitworth, whether true or false, is probably the origin of the false myth of Whistlin' Dick being buried. That is almost as ridiculous as the "dumped in the river" story.
If the Confederates were too weak to bury a Whitworth, they certainly were too weak to bury 5000lb WD (tube only.
 
i agree with you on all points. Although Brooke rifles have very little in common with Whitworths in terms of bursting the barrels or tubes.

I think that the story of burying the Whitworth, whether true or false, is probably the origin of the false myth of Whistlin' Dick being buried. That is almost as ridiculous as the "dumped in the river" story.
If the Confederates were too weak to bury a Whitworth, they certainly were too weak to bury 5000lb WD (tube only.
I threw that in because bursting barrels seemed to gather more attention in the records than other types of failures and had the Whitworth's barrel failed, I'm sure that someone would have made a note or comment about it.
 
I threw that in because bursting barrels seemed to gather more attention in the records than other types of failures and had the Whitworth's barrel failed, I'm sure that someone would have made a note or comment about it.
It seems to me that
I threw that in because bursting barrels seemed to gather more attention in the records than other types of failures and had the Whitworth's barrel failed, I'm sure that someone would have made a note or comment about it.
I agree.
 
Here is another famous wartime photo of the 32-Pounder Navy gun. Warren Ripley says the gun was found in a cemetery in the latter years of the 19th century and the National Military park got it. It was formerly part of the guns placed at the "Water Battery" (1960's) but at some point has been moved in front of the NMP visitors center.View attachment 308046
this photo shows the cannon mounted in the Castle Battery, where it was emplaned after the siege. The soldier is from the USCT.
 
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