Restricted Facts, Fables & History

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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
I want to know how they paid for a tax when their economy was devastated? How did they pay the cotton tax when they had one of the worst cases of hyperinflation ever recorded. All this stuff is moot unless we find out how they paid the cotton tax.
After the ACW from 1866 to 1868 there was no more Confederate currency in circulation. There was pent up demand in Western Europe for Southern cotton as it was better quality then cotton from British India.
Several sources have been given about the cotton tax. We know it was collected. So far no information about the various federal court cases regarding the legality of the cotton production tax especially from the Supreme Court.
Leftyhunter
 

lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
After the ACW from 1866 to 1868 there was no more Confederate currency in circulation. There was pent up demand in Western Europe for Southern cotton as it was better quality then cotton from British India.
Several sources have been given about the cotton tax. We know it was collected. So far no information about the various federal court cases regarding the legality of the cotton production tax especially from the Supreme Court.
Leftyhunter
I'm talking about 1861-1865, when they had hyperinflation. How did they pay $3 million in tax? They didn't have the money. Why didn't the government just confiscate the cotton, and need to tax when the Union had the cotton land occupied?
 

lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
After the ACW from 1866 to 1868 there was no more Confederate currency in circulation. There was pent up demand in Western Europe for Southern cotton as it was better quality then cotton from British India.
Several sources have been given about the cotton tax. We know it was collected. So far no information about the various federal court cases regarding the legality of the cotton production tax especially from the Supreme Court.
Leftyhunter
I been talking about 1861-1865, and you are still on 1866 and the subsequent years.
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
I'm talking about 1861-1865, when they had hyperinflation. How did they pay $3 million in tax? They didn't have the money. Why didn't the government just confiscate the cotton, and need to tax when the Union had the cotton land occupied?
Not sure that would be legal. The US government can not confiscate land even if it was owned by secessionists. Jefferson Davis and his brother Joseph did not have their plantations confiscated.
Once the land is secured by the Union that owner is entitled to do what he wants with it. Apparently the US government can tax cotton grown in said land although the legality of doing so was a legal issue that lasted at least forty six years after the tax ended in 1868.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
I'm talking about 1861-1865, when they had hyperinflation. How did they pay $3 million in tax? They didn't have the money. Why didn't the government just confiscate the cotton, and need to tax when the Union had the cotton land occupied?
You might be interested in this source "Laws if the United States & decisions if the court relating to war claims" compiled by J.B. Holloway 1884?
P.124 to 127 "Laws to provide for the collection of a tax on cotton,".
Per Holloway there was a Supreme Court decision but Holloway did not provide a citation. At the time of the case there were eight justices not the customary nine justices and the court split four to four on the legality of said cotton tax.
No sure what the outcome was regarding the 1923 lawsuit by Governor Hardee was.
Leftyhunter
 
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lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
I did state several times that per the JSTOR article only three million dollars of tax revenue was collected from 1862 to 1865.
Leftyhunter
I keep asking how they paid the taxes when they had severe hyperinflation? I don't believe those sources without evidence on how they paid the taxes. This is the whole essence on whether or not they supposedly paid those taxes...
 

lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Not sure that would be legal. The US government can not confiscate land even if it was owned by secessionists. Jefferson Davis and his brother Joseph did not have their plantations confiscated.
Once the land is secured by the Union that owner is entitled to do what he wants with it. Apparently the US government can tax cotton grown in said land although the legality of doing so was a legal issue that lasted at least forty six years after the tax ended in 1868.
Leftyhunter
All is fair in love and war, the Confederates were open game so we can throw the legality out the window. The only problem is that I'm not talking about 1868 and the subsequent 46 years. I'm saying that during the war (1861-1865) the Confederates had no money nor and liquid commodities worth anything to even pay $3 million in taxes. Where did they get the money to pay those so-called taxes?
 

lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
You might be interested in this source "Laws if the United States & decisions if the court relating to war claims" compiled by J.B. Holloway 1884?
P.124 to 127 "Laws to provide for the collection of a tax on cotton,".
Per Holloway there was a Supreme Court decision but Holloway did not provide a citation. At the time of the case there were eight justices not the customary nine justices and the court split four to four on the legality of said cotton tax.
No sure what the outcome was regarding the 1923 lawsuit by Governor Hardee was.
Leftyhunter
No, I'm not interested in a third party source with a highly subjective interpretation of events devoid of primary sources.
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
All is fair in love and war, the Confederates were open game so we can throw the legality out the window. The only problem is that I'm not talking about 1868 and the subsequent 46 years. I'm saying that during the war (1861-1865) the Confederates had no money nor and liquid commodities worth anything to even pay $3 million in taxes. Where did they get the money to pay those so-called taxes?
As I have stated several times the Union liberated the Seaward Island's of South Carolina and a good deal of Louisiana so cotton grown in those areas was taxed.
Leftyhunter
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
I keep asking how they paid the taxes when they had severe hyperinflation? I don't believe those sources without evidence on how they paid the taxes. This is the whole essence on whether or not they supposedly paid those taxes...
Since cotton grown in Union liberated areas can be easily exported not seeing the difficulty of taxing said cotton in Union occupied areas.
Leftyhunter
 

Poorville

Private
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
Since cotton grown in Union liberated areas can be easily exported not seeing the difficulty of taxing said cotton in Union occupied areas.
Leftyhunter
Leftyhunter you're my first port of call for clarity on numbers and their sources. I would be grateful if you, or anybody else for that matter, could let me know the cotton production figures (bales, bushels or pounds doesn't matter) in the Confederacy (liberated or not) during the war years. Thanks
 
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lurid

Sergeant
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Since cotton grown in Union liberated areas can be easily exported not seeing the difficulty of taxing said cotton in Union occupied areas.
Leftyhunter
It don't matter, I want to know how they paid the taxes when their money was worthless?
 

leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
Leftyhunter you're my first port of call for clarity on numbers and their sources. I would be grateful if you, or anybody else for that matter, could let me know the cotton production figures (bales, bushels or pounds doesn't matter) in the Confederacy (liberated or not) during the war years. Thanks
Not sure figures exist. My point to @lurid is simply that per the sources provided only paid three million dollars out of the sixty eight million dollars were collected from 1862 to 1865 and the remaining sixty five million dollars were collected in only two years from 1866 to 1868. The reason would be that simply only a relatively small area of Southern cotton land was under Union control. Said planters in the Union controlled areas would be paid in US currency. Once the ACW is over cotton growers would also be paid in US currency.
Obviously cotton grown in Confederate areas didn't pay a US tax. The Confederacy did try to tax cotton as well but per the source provided only collected five percent of all cotton exports during the ACW.
Leftyhunter
 

mobile_96

First Sergeant
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ill.
Since cotton grown in Union liberated areas can be easily exported not seeing the difficulty of taxing said cotton in Union occupied areas.
Leftyhunter
It don't matter, I want to know how they paid the taxes when their money was worthless?
They paid their taxes with the money they collected from the sale of the cotton to NON-confederate purchasers, and those people paid for it with greenbacks and or British pounds. They were Not selling that cotton to the confederacy.
 
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leftyhunter

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
May 27, 2011
Location
los angeles ca
They paid their taxes with the money they collected from the sale of the cotton to NON-confederate purchasers, and those people paid for it with greenbacks and or British pounds. They were Not selling that cotton to the confederacy.
One would think that was obvious. A cotton grower in a Union occupied area has no reason to sell his cotton to the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter
 

JRH48

Cadet
Joined
Mar 14, 2020
Location
Texas
It don't matter, I want to know how they paid the taxes when their money was worthless?
Do you know for a fact that Confederate script was in circulation as legal tender in Union occupied areas? If so, please provide a documented source to support this claim
 
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Poorville

Private
Joined
Jun 21, 2019
It don't matter, I want to know how they paid the taxes when their money was worthless?
I thought I would have a crack at resolving this having read the relevant part of 65th Congress - House of Representatives - Report No 1017, dated January 30, 1919.

There were four different acts of the US Congress levying a tax on raw cotton.

The act of July 1, 1862, levied a tax of 0.5 cent per pound.
The act of March 7, 1864, levied a tax of 2 cents per pound.

The third and fourth were enacted after the end of the war when the country was back under Union control, I have not concerned myself with these.

The act of July 13, 1866, levied a tax of 3 cents per pound.
The last was the act of March 2, 1867, levied a tax of 2 cents per pound.
On February 3, 1868, Congress passed an act repealing all four of the above acts.

The Act of 1862 contains the following, (the highlight is mine):
"On and after the 1st day of October, 1862, there shall be levied, collected, and paid, a tax of one-half of 1 cent per pound on all cotton held or owned by any person or persons, corporations, or association of persons; and such tax shall be in lieu thereon in the possession of any person whomsoever. And further, if any person or persons, corporation, or association of persons shall remove, carry, or transport the same from the place of its production before said tax shall be paid, such person or persons, corporation, or association of persons shall forfeit and pay to the United States double the amount of such tax, to be recovered in any court having jurisdiction thereof.”

The first year of such tax was fiscal year ending June 30 1863. The total tax was $351,311.48. This was not paid by the Confederate states but as the act states it was due on, “all cotton held or owned by any person or persons, corporations, or association of persons”. In fiscal 1863 this was paid by Union states or Union controlled states where holdings of cotton had been sold having been transported overland possibly through the Border States and/or we know there was some blockade running of cotton up the coast to the north eastern states such as New York for example where $102,041.83 of tax was levied.

Fiscal year ending June 30 1864 saw an increase in cotton moving north and becoming liable to Union tax alongside Union controlled Louisiana and Tennessee, retaken in 1862. A total of $1,268,412.56 being paid.

In fiscal year ending June 30 1865, after the end of the war, $1,772,983.48 tax was paid, once again primarily by the Union controlled Louisiana and Tennessee.

Whilst the Confederate currency was worthless we might assume any taxes levied in the southern states would have been paid for with cotton.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
I thought I would have a crack at resolving this having read the relevant part of 65th Congress - House of Representatives - Report No 1017, dated January 30, 1919.

There were four different acts of the US Congress levying a tax on raw cotton.

The act of July 1, 1862, levied a tax of 0.5 cent per pound.
The act of March 7, 1864, levied a tax of 2 cents per pound.

The third and fourth were enacted after the end of the war when the country was back under Union control, I have not concerned myself with these.

The act of July 13, 1866, levied a tax of 3 cents per pound.
The last was the act of March 2, 1867, levied a tax of 2 cents per pound.
On February 3, 1868, Congress passed an act repealing all four of the above acts.

The Act of 1862 contains the following, (the highlight is mine):
"On and after the 1st day of October, 1862, there shall be levied, collected, and paid, a tax of one-half of 1 cent per pound on all cotton held or owned by any person or persons, corporations, or association of persons; and such tax shall be in lieu thereon in the possession of any person whomsoever. And further, if any person or persons, corporation, or association of persons shall remove, carry, or transport the same from the place of its production before said tax shall be paid, such person or persons, corporation, or association of persons shall forfeit and pay to the United States double the amount of such tax, to be recovered in any court having jurisdiction thereof.”

The first year of such tax was fiscal year ending June 30 1863. The total tax was $351,311.48. This was not paid by the Confederate states but as the act states it was due on, “all cotton held or owned by any person or persons, corporations, or association of persons”. In fiscal 1863 this was paid by Union states or Union controlled states where holdings of cotton had been sold having been transported overland possibly through the Border States and/or we know there was some blockade running of cotton up the coast to the north eastern states such as New York for example where $102,041.83 of tax was levied.

Fiscal year ending June 30 1864 saw an increase in cotton moving north and becoming liable to Union tax alongside Union controlled Louisiana and Tennessee, retaken in 1862. A total of $1,268,412.56 being paid.

In fiscal year ending June 30 1865, after the end of the war, $1,772,983.48 tax was paid, once again primarily by the Union controlled Louisiana and Tennessee.

Whilst the Confederate currency was worthless we might assume any taxes levied in the southern states would have been paid for with cotton.
@Poorville ,

Thank you for the above source.

Appreciate you digging this out for the forum.

Sincerely,
Unionblue
 
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