Evaluation of evidence re The taking of blacks by the ANV during the Pennsylvania campaign

wilber6150

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Please provide evidence of the existence of this thing United Nations War Crimes Commission in the 19th century? We are discussing the state of Military law in the 19th century.
Actually, none of your answers in regards to the charging of soldeiers with crimes were limited to any specific time period, so please be more specific in your posts..
 

wilber6150

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Cash 's post about General Order 25
Link


Cash
Another Link.



Order #25



This constitutes the legal basis for the arrest of Pennsylvanian blacks during the Pennsylvania campaign.
Certainly does not.. Where does it give the authority to seize every black they come across and trasnport them out of state? Where are the regualtions on how to determine whether they are free or slave? Where are the regulations on what to do with people once they are determined to be free and not fugatives...
 

wilber6150

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In addition, a member of a slave nation used to seeing slaves and their body language from birth and hear their speech and accents, would be able to detect former and fugitive slaves by observation much better than a person from a free society.
So totally discounting the eyewitness accounts of people seeing blacks who were raised in the area being held captive.....
 

wilber6150

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I can understand your concern about my detailed analysis. However if the parts are defective, then the whole is defective. IMHO this whole ANV 'kidnapping' rhetoric looks like the old Black Confederate rhetoric. Lots of soft eyewitness and newspaper reports and zip in official records.
Sooooo now your discounting your own posts about depots?
 

jgoodguy

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The taking of African Americans by the ANV was a human tragedy. War is a secession of human tragedies.

Assume a government agent has the power of arrest. Can that agent be called a kidnapper in the performance of his duties? This is the crux of the kidnapping issue.

Confederate General Order 25.
March 6, 1863.
The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That every person connected
with the army or navy of the Confederate States, arresting or coming into
possession of any slave, by capture from the enemy, or otherwise than by lawful
authority, shall immediately report the same to the commanding officer of the post
or brigade or station to which he may be attached.
The soldiers had the power of arrest and it proceeded in a chain of command from the CSA government through the commanding officer to the common officer and soldier.

On March 21, 1863 Lee sent out a circular to all his subordinate commanders ordering them to comply with General Orders No. 25. (National Archives citation:“W. H. Taylor to General, 21 March 1863, Orders and Circulars Issued by the Army of the Potomac and the Army and Department of Northern Virginia, C.S.A., 1861-1865, NA Microfilm M921, reel I, frame 1391)

From the CSA Congress to the CSA Army Adjutant to General Lee and from HQ to the officers and men of the ANV.

Can said agent ever be said to kidnap in the performance of his duty?

An agent performing his duty under the laws of his country is not kidnapping.
The catching of slaves by slave catchers is not kidnapping in a slave republic or in its army of occupation.

But what about US law.

Does a Rebel Army marching into US territory have to obey US civil laws? The US Supreme Court say no.

DOW v. JOHNSON. 100 U.S. 158 (, 25 L.Ed. 632)
This doctrine of non-liability to the tribunals of the invaded country for acts of warfare is as applicable to members of the Confederate army, when in Pennsylvania, as to members of the National army when in the insurgent States. The officers or soldiers of neither army could be called to account civilly or criminally in those tribunals for such acts, whether those acts resulted in the destruction of property or the destruction of life; nor could they be required by those tribunals to explain or justify their conduct upon any averment of the injured party that the acts complained of were unauthorized by the necessities of war. It follows that, in our judgment, the District Court of New Orleans was without jurisdiction to render the judgment in question, and the special pleas in this case constituted a perfect answer to the declaration. See Coleman v. Tennessee, 97 U. S. 509; Ford v. Surget, id. 594; also LeCaux v. Eden, 2 Doug. 594; Lamar v. Browne, 92 U. S. 187; and Coolidge v. Guthrie, 2 Amer. Law Reg. N. S. 22.

In brief the assertion of Military Necessity becomes almost universal free pass for all kind of things.

Justice in Blue and Gray: A Legal History of the Civil War By Stephen C. Neff P19
In a situation of belligerency, there could be no criminal prosecution of enemy soldiers for carrying out lawful orders of their sovereign . Enemies in short have to be defeated, but not punished.

Even in modern times, military necessity covers a lot of sins.

Military Necessity
Military necessity is a legal concept used in international humanitarian law (IHL) as part of the legal justification for attacks on legitimate military targets that may have adverse, even terrible, consequences for civilians and civilian objects. It means that military forces in planning military actions are permitted to take into account the practical requirements of a military situation at any given moment and the imperatives of winning. The concept of military necessity acknowledges that even under the laws of war, winning the war or battle is a legitimate consideration, though it must be put alongside other considerations of IHL. -

In the 19th century Military Necessity allowed that a number of Union and Confederate actions were legal: Grants Vicksburg Campaign, Sherman's March to the Sea and the ANV Pennsylvania Campaign. While technically legal it was tragic in human terms. War is tragic in its execution. Yes martial law proceeds out of the business ends of rifle muskets & bayonets and exists only where it can be enforced by force, it is nevertheless recognized as law.

Fugitive slaves that were free by virtue of the Emancipation Proclamation or by reaching Pennsylvania and free under US and Pennsylvania law were not free under the state of martial law that traveled with the ANV.

What about free blacks? From the evidence provided so far, some were freed upon notification of their status by soldiers and officers of the ANV. Others were freed upon arriving in VA. Neither case constitutions kidnapping. CSA governmental procedures were followed in a regular manner.

What about free blacks not freed immediately. That would be False Arrest. That is a civil offense, not a crime and not actionable under martial law. It is speculative that some free blacks were enslaved by misadventure, but that would happen in the CSA and by parties unrelated to the ANV. Also tangible evidence rather than speculation that it happened to the Pennsylvania blacks arrested by the ANV would be essential.

What about taking African Americans into personal procession without the intent of following orders. The individuals that do it are guilty of disobeying orders and committing fraud. The order "The captured contrabands had better be brought along with you for further disposition." Indicates that at the highest levels of the ANV orders were being issued to insure compliance with CSA law. Disobedience to orders is speculative requiting evidence that it happened, not that it was conspired or thought of as in the letter of Col. William Steptoe Christian

In Summary.
I
1. The ANV was acting as the agent of their Country in the arrest of African Americans.
2. They are immune from civil criminal actions by marital law.
3. Kidnapping is a civil criminal action.
Therefore the ANV was not kidnapping.

II
1. The ANV was acting as the agent of their Country in the arrest of African American property.
2. The laws of the Commander of the ANV was supreme law AKA martial law.
3. The commander ordered the collection of African American property belonging to Southern Slave Owners.
4. Said African American property was collected.
Therefore the ANV was not kidnapping.

III
1. The ANV was acting as the agent of their Country in the arrest of African Americans.
2. The laws of the Commander of the ANV was supreme law AKA martial law.
3. The commander ordered the collection of African American property belonging to Southern Slave Owners.
4. Incidental non property African American's were collected and released at various times and places.
5. #4 Constitutes the civil tort of False Arrest unrecognized under marital law.
Therefore the ANV was not kidnapping.
 

jgoodguy

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Actually, none of your answers in regards to the charging of soldeiers with crimes were limited to any specific time period, so please be more specific in your posts..

Be delighted to discuss this topic in a separate thread if you wish.

Sooooo now your discounting your own posts about depots?

No

So totally discounting the eyewitness accounts of people seeing blacks who were raised in the area being held captive.....

No.


Certainly does not.. Where does it give the authority to seize every black they come across and trasnport them out of state? Where are the regualtions on how to determine whether they are free or slave? Where are the regulations on what to do with people once they are determined to be free and not fugatives...

1. All we need is General Lee to order it and cash has provided the details of the orders.
2. All we need is an order: collect contrabands. If black skin means contraband to a ANV soldier then it is legitimate to arrest that person and bring them to his commanding officer for disposition.
3. Lee ordered that the disposition of contrabands. We have eyewitness accounts where free blacks were released on their testimony or testimony of others that appears to be part of the disposition. It would be a waste of ANV manpower and resources to send African Americans to VA where they would be released because there would be no one to claim them as per the law. That said, we have newspaper accounts of free blacks arriving in Richmond and separated from the slaves indicates some sorting mechanism at work. If you wish to assert the free blacks were enslaved I will need a 'mountain' of evidence. Newspaper notices of sales, bill of sales, prison ledger accounts, Freeman Bureau records, plantation records and so on. I will be looking forward to it.
 

18thVirginia

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I disagree about constancy and look forward to your comments on future accounts. If I were consistent, someone would be complaining I was consistent. Each account will be looked at independent of others unless there is some connection for example slaves collected in one account and apparently freed or escaped in another that can be somehow connected. My comments on eyewitness and human memory are based on scientific research. I will consider military accounts, official records and the like as higher quality than civilian eyewitness accounts on the presumption that folks familiar with a subject are better witnesses than folks that are not. It is up to the reader to weight what I post. It is all evidence to be reviewed.

Actually no, you're not basing your arbitrary assignment of one kind of eyewitness to a lesser category than another on scientific research, but on personal biases and wishful thinking. The scientific research to which you've linked specifically mentions the problem of cross racial disparity in looking at possible criminals in lineups, suspect drawings, etc. The young Confederate officer whose eyewitness account you accept engages in cross racial identification--but you find that acceptable, because somehow white people from Pennsylvania can't identify black people who've lived among them and whom they know to have been born in their area from other black people. But, white people from the South can judge black residents of Pennsylvania.

That simply makes no sense.
 

ole

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OK. We seem to have determined that blacks were rounded up and sent south, free persons and escaped slaves. Was it criminal or simply not nice?

At the time, armies were issued abysmal rations. A chicken "found" was a treat. Was the taking of one criminal or just not nice? Sh** happens and happened during a war and did during that one. Why is this particular happening so argumentable? Is it any different than any family who had their orchard devastated, or their field of corn ravaged or their wheat trampled or their fences and outbuldings used for firewood?

Legality simply doesn't exist on a grunt's level in a campaign or battle. Lee was clear in his order when proceding into MD and PA. That some didn't heed is eerily similar to Sherman's order when he set off for Savannah.
 

jgoodguy

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Actually no, you're not basing your arbitrary assignment of one kind of eyewitness to a lesser category than another on scientific research, but on personal biases and wishful thinking. The scientific research to which you've linked specifically mentions the problem of cross racial disparity in looking at possible criminals in lineups, suspect drawings, etc. The young Confederate officer whose eyewitness account you accept engages in cross racial identification--but you find that acceptable, because somehow white people from Pennsylvania can't identify black people who've lived among them and whom they know to have been born in their area from other black people. But, white people from the South can judge black residents of Pennsylvania.

That simply makes no sense.

Your opinion is noted.
 

jgoodguy

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Not real sure why all the Yankee advocates are so upset at analyzing old history, but we march on.

THE EFFECT OF THE CONFEDERATE
INVASION OF PENNSYLVANIA ON
GETTYSBURG’S AFRICAN AMERICAN
COMMUNITY

by Peter C. Vermilyea
"Regardless of the veracity of this account"

Interesting. Something could be partially or mostly fiction and still contain evidence of interest. Gone With The Wind is fiction, but one can figure out using it there was a Civil War, that slavery and cotton had something to with it and the site of some major battles.

There is no evidence to suggest where in the Confederate high command the order to capture and return blacks to slavery originated. In spite of this, there is no doubt that high-ranking Confederate officers were involved in the seizure of blacks. On July 1, Lt. Gen. James Longstreet reminded his division commander George Pickett that “the captured contraband had better be brought along with you for further disposition” when Pickett left Chambersburg for the march to Gettysburg

Actually we know where the orders originated. This lack of background knowledge would lead this high school teacher history enthusiast to misinterpret the actions he documents. The data may be correct, but interpretation and emphasis of his account becomes questionable as well as directives.
 

wilber6150

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Be delighted to discuss this topic in a separate thread if you wish.



No.




1. All we need is General Lee to order it and cash has provided the details of the orders.
2. All we need is an order: collect contrabands. If black skin means contraband to a ANV soldier then it is legitimate to arrest that person and bring them to his commanding officer for disposition.
3. Lee ordered that the disposition of contrabands. We have eyewitness accounts where free blacks were released on their testimony or testimony of others that appears to be part of the disposition. It would be a waste of ANV manpower and resources to send African Americans to VA where they would be released because there would be no one to claim them as per the law. That said, we have newspaper accounts of free blacks arriving in Richmond and separated from the slaves indicates some sorting mechanism at work. If you wish to assert the free blacks were enslaved I will need a 'mountain' of evidence. Newspaper notices of sales, bill of sales, prison ledger accounts, Freeman Bureau records, plantation records and so on. I will be looking forward to it.

Where is all your evidence of these hearings and people were being set free? You keep claiming this happened yet have failed to post anything supporting this...Please post these newspaper accounts that you say support your theory...
 

jgoodguy

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THE EFFECT OF THE CONFEDERATE
INVASION OF PENNSYLVANIA ON
GETTYSBURG’S AFRICAN AMERICAN
COMMUNITY

by Peter C. Vermilyea
In addition, guerilla ands accompanying the invasion confiscated livestock, household valuables, and blacks to sell in Virginia for personal profit. On several occasions Confederate officers helped release black captives because “they, too, were heartsick when they saw this happening.”

"guerilla ands" is assumed by me to be guerrilla bands

Irregular cavalry recorded that being in the Pennsylvania Campaign and could be misidentified as guerrillas by civilians. No guerrillas bands unless local Pennsylvania units loyal to the South unrecorded by history were around.

No evidence of "to sell in Virginia for personal profit." is offered. For a fugitive slave or contraband, it is counter to Lee's orders, the orders of Longstreet to Prickett, CSA Military Law, CSA Law(fraud) and would be a tort against the Confederate slave owner from whom either the slave was a fugitive or taken in contraband by the Union army. In the case of free blacks, there is evidence of free blacks being released in PA and either imprisoned separately or released in VA. Therefore considerable evidence is required beyond the existence of slave markets in Richmond.

The vision of a CSA serviceman allowed to desert in the face of the enemy to carry a contraband back to old Virgina is staggering. The logistics are very difficult. Where exactly do you stash your black booty while the company is off at battle or marching. Unless the thief is quick he and his booty are going be either captured post Battle of Gettysburg by the Union victors or they will be in the chaos of the retreat where transportation will be prioritized to get the heck out of Pennsylvania and carrying personal booty recognized and dealt with. In short it could have happened is insufficient.

My analysis is that the the author's lack of the knowledge of the General Order 25 has led him to make an erroneous statement: "to sell in Virginia for personal profit."
 

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jgoodguy

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THE EFFECT OF THE CONFEDERATE
INVASION OF PENNSYLVANIA ON
GETTYSBURG’S AFRICAN AMERICAN
COMMUNITY

by Peter C. Vermilyea

Despite the happy ending in Greencastle, no less than fifty blacks from the Adams County area ended up on the auction blocks of the southern slave markets, brought south while “bound with ropes” as “ the children were mounted in front or behind the rebels on their horses.” [34]

[34] Frank Moore, ed. Rebellion Record: A Diary of American Events with Documents, Narratives, Illustrative Incidents, Poetry, etc. , 11 vols. And supplement (New York: G.P. Putnam, 1861-1868), 7:197.

From the source
View attachment 86838


This is a secondary source, not primary. The author did not witness the events. The author does not witness the selling of the African Americans. He has neither personal knowledge nor tangible evidence just an assumption.

Note the escape of many of those arrested by the ANV indicates a lack of personal interest by the ANV soldiers, who were just following orders to the benefit of far away slave owners. Time after time old women escape, white women overpower or outwit armed guards, blacks just slip away. Obviously there was none of the personal private enterprise entrepreneurial spirit suggested by some.

In short the eyewitness testimony indicates that the ANV as a whole were disinterested and reluctant slave hunters engaged in a bureaucratic endeavor forced on them by faraway civilians in the Richmond government.
 

jgoodguy

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You are receiving a data dump of my evidence regarding Free Blacks captured in Pennsylvania. It suggests:
  1. They were not enslaved.
  2. They were separated from slaves by some procedure. It may be an ad hoc procedure, but it is a procedure nevertheless.
  3. Some were freed.
  4. Some were exchanged for union prisoners.
  5. Most just hung around in the CSA prison system until they disappear from the record.


From James B White Post #3

Prison Record.
--At the Libby prison yesterday there were one hundred and sixty Yankees received, the last of these captured at Gettysburg.

At Castle Thunder sixty five negroes were received, who were captured by Stuart in Pennsylvania during the recent invasion of our army.
http://dlxs.richmond.edu/cgi/t/text...e=ddr0858.0025.034:3.2.5;start=1;size=25;hi=0[/QUOTE]


From the Richmond Sentinel, 8/21/1863

Slaves Confined in Castle Thunder. - The officers in charge of Castle Thunder and the Libby prisons, have very courteously furnished us with the annexed list of slaves, the names of their owners, and, where it is known, their place of residence. As the information is derived from the negroes there may be mistakes in the names of their masters. Besides the following, there are a number of negroes confined in the Confederate prisons claiming to be free. We make this publication for the benefit of those citizens who have lost slaves:

[List of 70 slaves, male and female, young and old, not transcribed]

Slaves Confined in Libby Prison.
Charles Boswell, man, owned by Wm. Davis, Prince William county, Va.
Edmund, man, owned by John Saunderson, Norfolk.
George Hunter, man, owned by Mrs. Straum, Spotsylvania, Va.

Note that the slaves appear to be self identified without an owner's name associated.
Not so with those claiming to be free.

a regular slave hunt - Dead Confederates, A Civil War Era

There is evidence to show that some of those kidnapped
ended up in Confederate prisons
. After the battle of Gettysburg
a group of local white men were taken prisoner when they
strayed too near rebel lines at Hagerstown. These Franklin
Countians were interned in several prisons in Richmond, including
the infamous “Castle Thunder.” One of the prisoners,
D.M. Eiker of Chambersburg, recalled his prison experience
for author Jacob Hoke in his book Historical Reminiscences of
The War In and About Chambersburg. Eiker wrote that, “A little
colored boy from York, Pa., captured during the invasion, was
in Castle Thunder, but was allowed to go and come at his pleasure.”
Eiker also encountered a black man from Chambersburg.
“While in the Castle I met Alexander Lewis, a colored man,

from this place, known to many of our citizens.” Lewis had
been captured during the invasion, and placed in the prison’s
culinary department.
Lewis apparently made it back to
Chambersburg,
for at the time of the publication of Hoke’s book
in 1884 he was said to have been working at a hotel in the town.19

1864-03-03, Richmond Whig; six negroes, recaptured from the Yankees, are taken to Castle Thunder


From the Richmond Whig, 3/3/1864, p. 1, c. 3

NEGROES CAPTURED FROM THE YANKEE RIDERS. - Hendley Mitchel, Junius Mangrain and Joe Havley, free negroes, and James, slave of Mrs. Land, of Hanover, George, slave of Mrs. Emily Shelton, of Goochland, and Renty, slave of Colonel Edmund Fontaine, of Louisa, all of whom were recaptured from the Yankee raiders on the Chickahominy by Major Robins' battalion, were brought to this city and lodged in Castle Thunder yesterday.
Again slaves and free blacks are separated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From On the Edge of Freedom:The Fugitive Slave Issue in South Central ...
By David G. Smith
Another ex library on its way to me.

Note the term arrest rather than kidnapping.
Also a free negro named Amos Barnes is freed upon application, however freeing the remainder is caught up in the prisoner exchange embargo.


p2.png

p3.png

Southern Rights: Political Prisoners and the Myth of Confederate Constitutionalism
Oct 29, 1999 by Mark E. Neely Jr.
This source reiterates that Free Blacks were not enslaves and some were released.
It also refutes the kidnapping label.

p4.png


Newspaper account of free negro exchanged for CSA prisoner.
p5.png
 

James B White

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Thank you! I was trying to find more about the prisoners in Castle Thunder, but didn't look in the Richmond Sentinal.

At most they seem labeled separately, rather than imprisoned separately. In other words, they would be in the same prison population, rather than the slaves one place and the free elsewhere, even if they were categorized as free.

What was CS military/civilian law about holding free blacks indefinitely waiting for prisoner exchange? The situation seems to imply that even if they were free in the first place, they didn't receive freedom even if that was ascertained in Virginia, but just stayed in prison.
 

jgoodguy

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Thank you! I was trying to find more about the prisoners in Castle Thunder, but didn't look in the Richmond Sentinal.

At most they seem labeled separately, rather than imprisoned separately. In other words, they would be in the same prison population, rather than the slaves one place and the free elsewhere, even if they were categorized as free.

What was CS military/civilian law about holding free blacks indefinitely waiting for prisoner exchange? The situation seems to imply that even if they were free in the first place, they didn't receive freedom even if that was ascertained in Virginia, but just stayed in prison.

I am a bit too tired to make a coherent response other than to say that it was a human tragedy compounded by human snafu. The system assumed that the military would return contrabands from military activity around the core CSA states. It did not foresee an invasion of the North into areas far away with lots of free blacks. The military in turn was faced with implementing a direct order in the best way it could and because there was no obvious marker to distinguish free from slave all were swept up. I suppose Lee was thinking of spending awhile in PA and in course of events things would have been sorted out there. Gettysburg happened and then chaos. Finally the folks in charge in Richmond did not have a clue what to do.
 

18thVirginia

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You are receiving a data dump of my evidence regarding Free Blacks captured in Pennsylvania. It suggests:
  1. They were not enslaved.
  2. They were separated from slaves by some procedure. It may be an ad hoc procedure, but it is a procedure nevertheless.
  3. Some were freed.
  4. Some were exchanged for union prisoners.
  5. Most just hung around in the CSA prison system until they disappear from the record.


From James B White Post #3

Prison Record.
--At the Libby prison yesterday there were one hundred and sixty Yankees received, the last of these captured at Gettysburg.

At Castle Thunder sixty five negroes were received, who were captured by Stuart in Pennsylvania during the recent invasion of our army.
http://dlxs.richmond.edu/cgi/t/text...e=ddr0858.0025.034:3.2.5;start=1;size=25;hi=0

Note that the slaves appear to be self identified without an owner's name associated.
Not so with those claiming to be free.

a regular slave hunt - Dead Confederates, A Civil War Era
Again slaves and free blacks are separated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From On the Edge of Freedom:The Fugitive Slave Issue in South Central ...
By David G. Smith
Another ex library on its way to me.

Note the term arrest rather than kidnapping.
Also a free negro named Amos Barnes is freed upon application, however freeing the remainder is caught up in the prisoner exchange embargo.


View attachment 86860
View attachment 86861
Southern Rights: Political Prisoners and the Myth of Confederate Constitutionalism
Oct 29, 1999 by Mark E. Neely Jr.
This source reiterates that Free Blacks were not enslaves and some were released.
It also refutes the kidnapping label.

View attachment 86863

Newspaper account of free negro exchanged for CSA prisoner.
View attachment 86864[/QUOTE]

So basically, you've demonstrated what Verilyea's eyewitnesses stated, that free blacks were kidnapped in Pennsylvania and taken away by the Confederates to be enslaved.

My husband often tells the story of the old judge who taught him criminal law in a courtroom. When the police would state that a person wasn't under arrest, His Honor would ask them, "Could they walk away; would you have stopped them if they did? No, then they were under arrest."

It doesn't matter if one chooses to describe a kidnapping by some other euphemism. And free black civilians captured and pressed into forced labor by the Confederacy, were enslaved.
 

jgoodguy

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Note that the slaves appear to be self identified without an owner's name associated.
Not so with those claiming to be free.

a regular slave hunt - Dead Confederates, A Civil War Era
Again slaves and free blacks are separated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From On the Edge of Freedom:The Fugitive Slave Issue in South Central ...
By David G. Smith
Another ex library on its way to me.

Note the term arrest rather than kidnapping.
Also a free negro named Amos Barnes is freed upon application, however freeing the remainder is caught up in the prisoner exchange embargo.


View attachment 86860
View attachment 86861
Southern Rights: Political Prisoners and the Myth of Confederate Constitutionalism
Oct 29, 1999 by Mark E. Neely Jr.
This source reiterates that Free Blacks were not enslaves and some were released.
It also refutes the kidnapping label.

View attachment 86863

Newspaper account of free negro exchanged for CSA prisoner.
View attachment 86864

So basically, you've demonstrated what Verilyea's eyewitnesses stated, that free blacks were kidnapped in Pennsylvania and taken away by the Confederates to be enslaved.

My husband often tells the story of the old judge who taught him criminal law in a courtroom. When the police would state that a person wasn't under arrest, His Honor would ask them, "Could they walk away; would you have stopped them if they did? No, then they were under arrest."

It doesn't matter if one chooses to describe a kidnapping by some other euphemism. And free black civilians captured and pressed into forced labor by the Confederacy, were enslaved.

That opinion is typical of those who wish to have a crime without doing the time to prove it. They desire to have an emotional impact of a crime just to demonize someone but lacking a trial to evaluate evidence and apply law-oh lord that is too much and just maybe not have the desired result. Unhappy with a unpunished tragedy they desire to dig the bones of the dead up and convict them. Big headlines, little evidence leading into the abyss of error.
 
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