Discussion Early Parrott Rifles, Theories, Ideas, What's the deal here?

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So, I find this particular subject interesting. Early pre-production 10-pdr. Parrotts in 1860, and first year production in 1861. The 2.9 inch era. The first year of production. A time when West Point Foundry was selling to other "entities" besides the U.S. government. (The State of New York, the Commonweath of Pennsylvania, rumored that the "City of Philadelphia" got some, and of course who could forget the famous sale of 1 pre-production sample for Stonewall Jackson's testing, plus 12 more guns ordered for the State of Virginia)

My question, however, lies not with the sales, but with the sighting system on the guns.

So, many people regard the gun, Registry Number 1 (CP), at Hanover, PA, to be the first Production Gun from West Point Foundry, but that doesn't seem right.

I've looked at that gun, and gun #6 right next to it, and they both have the shoulder mounted Parrott stadia sight system, and that's "supposed to be" a sign of a later model cannon, earlier model guns are supposed to have the muzzle mounted front sight, and a pendulum hausse mounting centered on the breech.

Perhaps Parrott designed the 10-pdr. Parrott Stadia sight earlier than we all thought, but the U.S. Ordnance Department was uncomfortable with such a radical departure from the standard sighting system, and insisted in having the old pendulum system setup on all the guns it ordered in 1861? Maybe the State of P.A. was okay with trying the new sight system before anyone else?

No, I think there is more to the story here...

Okay let's set the sight question to the side for a moment...

Now, I saw a claim on Gettysburg Daily that these are probably just reproduction barrels, they are too rough, and the barrels are out of round, the markings aren't normal, and they just don't look right. But I need to call B.S. because these guns have a proper Patented 1861 stamp on the reinforce, and all the other stamps are actually correct for early 1861 guns, you just don't see early 1861 guns on the field often, so no, I believe that claim is wrong, these aren't reproductions.

If they were early guns for the State of Pennsylvania that were issued and went to Manassas, why would they have a Patent Stamp? Shouldn't they have a CAV stamp? That was what they used to show the Patent was waiting approval prior to October 1, 1861, so this gun must have been stamped after that date.

So, that would explain the trunnion sights instead of the center muzzle sight I was expecting. But then that would mean this isn't the first manufactured gun off the line in 1861, rather a later year model....

The only way to really tell, and of course I didn't yet discover this info among any of my books, but the Foundry numbers might help unravel the tale! I tried to see if i could see one, but alas, nothing was visible when I visited yesterday.

So, is this line of thinking logical?
 
What is this about pre-production sample to Stonewall Jackson's testing? And a purchase by Virginia?
So, it’s fairly well known that an early version, a single copy of the Parrott was shipped to VMI and tested by Jackson, who said it was superior to pretty much all other guns, and that more should be ordered.

I don’t think it’s known if Jackson tested a 2.9 inch gun, or if it was a different odd size, perhaps 3.2” if I remember, I think that’s the equivalent of a 4 pounder in smoothbore.

So, the State on Virginia sent 2 buyers to NYC and among other things, before the firing on Fort Sumter they ordered and paid for 12 Parrott Rifles for Virginia.

No, historians disagree on if the order was fulfilled, and if it was, if it arrived.
 
So, it’s fairly well known that an early version, a single copy of the Parrott was shipped to VMI and tested by Jackson, who said it was superior to pretty much all other guns, and that more should be ordered.

I don’t think it’s known if Jackson tested a 2.9 inch gun, or if it was a different odd size, perhaps 3.2” if I remember, I think that’s the equivalent of a 4 pounder in smoothbore.

So, the State on Virginia sent 2 buyers to NYC and among other things, before the firing on Fort Sumter they ordered and paid for 12 Parrott Rifles for Virginia.

No, historians disagree on if the order was fulfilled, and if it was, if it arrived.

I knew Georgia had ordered some with the same circumstances, but I had no idea Virginia put in an order or Jackson recommended them. I'm kind of surprised on Virginia considering Deep South States were placing orders for cannon from Tredegar before Fort Sumter. I guess Virginia wanted the latest and most up to date rifled guns from elsewhere themselves. Still surprised as they had their own capability, even for rifled guns.
 
If the guns were a state purchase, the markings could be non-standard. For the order of 24 guns for the Ohio National Guard in 1864, all 24 were inspected by a State of Ohio inspector (SB). 12 6-pdr guns and 12 12-pdr guns were purchased. The 6-pdr guns are numbered 1-12 on the muzzle, and the 12-pdr guns were also numbered 1-12 on the muzzle. The foundry numbers were consecutive and in the order that the guns were delivered ( 4 separate deliveries, 6-pdr, 12-pdr, 12-pdr, 6-pdr)
 
Here are some links / references on the Stonewall Jackson Testing & Virginia Purchase, I've linked and highlighted the relevant pages...




 
If the guns were a state purchase, the markings could be non-standard. For the order of 24 guns for the Ohio National Guard in 1864, all 24 were inspected by a State of Ohio inspector (SB). 12 6-pdr guns and 12 12-pdr guns were purchased. The 6-pdr guns are numbered 1-12 on the muzzle, and the 12-pdr guns were also numbered 1-12 on the muzzle. The foundry numbers were consecutive and in the order that the guns were delivered ( 4 separate deliveries, 6-pdr, 12-pdr, 12-pdr, 6-pdr)
Were the "foundry numbers" consecutive, or were the registry numbers consecutive? That's two different things really. Perhaps both were. Or maybe you really meant registry number.

So, to be clear, foundry numbers were used to track castings internally at a foundry from cast, to machining, to boring and rifling, and on to inspection.

Once it's inspected by an ordnance officer and stamped with it's registration number, that's its new identity, it becomes the property of the Federal or State government it was sold to, and they stop tracking it by the Foundry number.

Foundry numbers are usually stamped on the face of the wall next to the trunnion (called the rimbase) and hidden by the ironwork on the carriage, so when mounted, and properly fit, you can't see them. On today's battlefield reproduction carriages, they build some extra space into the design, and there is usually a bit of space, so you have a 50/50 chance that you can see the foundry number on the side of the barrel.

Registry numbers are usually stamped on the muzzle, or some other easy to read & find location.
 
Oh, and I should mention, it was quite common if you look at registration numbers and compare them to foundry numbers you will see lots of skipped numbers, and that can mean all kinds of things, a bad casting that was tossed to be melted, a bad boring, like let's say the bore hole wasn't straight, back in the pot as they say, or the rifling gets thrashed, it probably happened, back in the pot! You go to proof a barrel and it bursts, another number gone. Back in the pot. Every time this happened, you loose a foundry number from the list.

Not to mention, and I'm not 100% on this, but I think some foundries mixed different gun types among the same string of foundry numbers. So, I don't know how Parrott did it, but they could cast say twelve 10-pdrs. (1-12), then four 20-pdrs (13-16), next eight 30-pdrs. (17-34), next one 100-pdr. (35), twenty-four 10-pdrs. (36-59), then two 200-pdrs. (60-61).... and so on.

So, if they used that type of numbering system at a foundry, the foundry numbers could really jump around depending on what was being cast day to day, and week to week.
 
On the Ohio Guns, the foundry numbers are stamped on the end of the trunions, so are easily visible. Guns that I have confirmed to exist have the location listed, it is unknown if the others still exist. Ohio did not follow the US Gov. standards regarding markings on these guns. You will also see pre-1864 Miles Greenwood guns with OHIO marked on the muzzles that follow these standards - they would have been the 39 6-pdr field guns that were sent into federal service from the start of the war until mid-1863 ( when Ohio had no artillery left in the arsenal).



Delivery #Gun TypeTrunion NumberMuzzle NumberKnown Location
1​
6-pdr
172​
1​
1​
6-pdr
173​
2​
Urbandale Iowa (Private Collection)
1​
6-pdr
174​
3​
Ohio State House
1​
6-pdr
175​
4​
1​
6-pdr
176​
5​
1​
6-pdr
177​
6​
Grove Cemetary,Kenton Ohio
2​
12-pdr
178​
1​
Vetrans Home, Georgetown Ohio
2​
12-pdr
179​
2​
Ohio State House
2​
12-pdr
180​
3​
2​
12-pdr
181​
4​
2​
12-pdr
182​
5​
2​
12-pdr
183​
6​
AXP Museum, Xenia Ohio
3​
12-pdr
184​
7​
3​
12-pdr
185​
8​
3​
12-pdr
186​
9​
AXP Museum, Xenia Ohio
3​
12-pdr
187​
10​
Ohio State House
3​
12-pdr
188​
11​
3​
12-pdr
189​
12​
4​
6-pdr
190​
7​
Ft Macon, North Carolina
4​
6-pdr
191​
8​
4​
6-pdr
192​
9​
Ohio State House
4​
6-pdr
193​
10​
4​
6-pdr
194​
11​
VFW Norwalk Ohio
4​
6-pdr
195​
12​

12pdr_183i.JPG


12pdr_183h.JPG
 
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