Dwight Eisenhower on Lee and Secession

[K Hale]

Which statement?

"That was my view, that the act of Virginia in withdrawing herself from the United States carried me along as a citizen of Virginia, and that her laws and her acts were binding on me."

Nothing could be clearer.

 

[Elennsar]

Nothing could be clearer.

Or more worrisome.

 

[K Hale]

It doesn't worry me. He's dead.

 

[Elennsar]

For some reason, the only thing that I can think to say is 'Fortunately,", and that's terrible.

More to the point, do you think the implications of Lee being willing to follow Virginia anywhere are worrisome?

 

[K Hale]

More to the point, do you think the implications of Lee being willing to follow Virginia anywhere are worrisome?

No, why would I think that? It's not like he's going to do it again.

 

[Elennsar]

No, why would I think that? It's not like he's going to do it again.

Imagining Lee going with Virginia on other things.

What ifs, mostly, some fairly far fetched.

But still unpleasant.

 

[K Hale]

Imagining Lee going with Virginia on other things.

What ifs, mostly, some fairly far fetched.

But still unpleasant.

Why would I worry about things that didn't happen and never will?

 

[Elennsar]

Why would I worry about things that didn't happen and never will?

Spam. On white bread. With mayonnaise.

That's why.

 

[K Hale]

THAT would worry me. How about a nice grilled chicken ciabatta?

 

[Elennsar]

THAT would worry me. How about a nice grilled chicken ciabatta?

That sounds like a much better idea.

Or one of these:

http://busycooks.about.com/od/breadrecipes/a/grilledsandwich.htm

Lord Sandwich was a rotten head of the navy, but his "Just put it between two pieces of bread so that I can eat it while I play cards." idea - original or not - was inspired.

What does this have to do with Lee?

Well, I could say something about the spamwich idea relating to "never will happen" but still scary, but really, it was just an attempt to change the subject.

 

[Ellsworth avenger]

Eisenhower felt that he was bound by the laws of his state (Kansas, isn't it?) first and foremost?

I love Ike but he was born in Texas.:hmmm: He overcame that as he did his pacifist mother. Seriously these things probably helped give him balance.

 

[Elennsar]

I love Ike but he was born in Texas.:hmmm: He overcame that as he did his pacifist mother. Seriously these things probably helped give him balance.

Might well have. Eisenhower seems to have been a man of very good judgment, by and large. That had to have come from somewhere.

 

[K Hale]

I love Ike but he was born in Texas.:hmmm: He overcame that as he did his pacifist mother. Seriously these things probably helped give him balance.

One never overcomes being born in Texas.

 

[brass napoleon]

If you are referring to the sentence I think you are, it raises a troublesome thought.

Did Lee really feel that he was just a pawn of Virginia? What it did, he would go with, whether that put him against law, conscience, country, good judgment, whatever?

Making the decision he did in the circumstances he did would be one thing. Contemplating if he would go with Virginia wherever it lead is...frankly extremely alarming.

Why would that be any more alarming than George Thomas (or anyone else for that matter, past or present) going unconditionally for the United States, no matter where it leads?

 

[K Hale]

Why would that be any more alarming than George Thomas (or anyone else for that matter, past or present) going unconditionally for the United States, no matter where it leads?

Yeah? ........

 

[Elennsar]

Why would that be any more alarming than George Thomas (or anyone else for that matter, past or present) going unconditionally for the United States, no matter where it leads?

I should have made it clearer that it was the "wherever it leads" that bothers me, not picking Virginia as the leader. Or even "his state" as the leader. "My country/religion/family/state/lord right or wrong" worries me.

I would like to think that Thomas would not have followed a United States he believed to be in the wrong.

I could be wrong on that. But that's why Thomas's decision doesn't scare me and Lee's does.

 

[wilber6150]

One never overcomes being born in Texas.

Being Texan is kind of like having a birth defect? lol

 

[OpnCoronet]

But, more pertinent to this particular thread, Ike was basing his estimation of Lee on a false assumption i.e., "He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America;..." It may have been arguable in the Country but, not to Lee's mind. Clearly he did not believe unswervinglhy in the Constitutional validity of his cause, Even granting, as many seem to do, that it is only what Lee thought that counted and we know what Lee thought on this matter abd it was not an unswerving belief in the Constitutional validity of his cause.
But this thread is about Ike's estimation of Lee and 'that' estimation was based on a false assumption. If his assumption is incorrect, his estimation is incorrect.

 

[larry_cockerham]

But, more pertinent to this particular thread, Ike was basing his estimation of Lee on a false assumption i.e., "He believed unswervingly in the Constitutional validity of his cause which until 1865 was still an arguable question in America;..." It may have been arguable in the Country but, not to Lee's mind. Clearly he did not believe unswervinglhy in the Constitutional validity of his cause, Even granting, as many seem to do, that it is only what Lee thought that counted and we know what Lee thought on this matter abd it was not an unswerving belief in the Constitutional validity of his cause.
But this thread is about Ike's estimation of Lee and 'that' estimation was based on a false assumption. If his assumption is incorrect, his estimation is incorrect.

While you might argue, and obvously have, that there was a false assumption in General Ike's conclusion, that certainly doesn't preclude his having using several correct assumptions as well. One bad assumption does not necessarily a decision make. Ike didn't wind up with five stars on his shoulders making bad assumptions.

 

[Elennsar]

But being good at making correct assumptions in the arena that earned him five stars is another field entirely from the field where his assumptions are questioned.

It would be pretty cool if Ike was a superb general, a great president, a good painter, and an infallible historian, but three out of four isn't bad.