Restricted Do Rebels deserve new monuments?

CMWinkler

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So if people in the South say, "No, I don't want that monument in a public park" or "No, I don't want that person's name on my child's school", then all knowledge of the past will be suddenly and irrevocably erased? No one is going to wipe the Confederacy from the history books by taking down a statue or refusing to put one up. There is a difference between remembering a thing and memorializing it.

With respect, since I never said that, I'll decline to respond to this straw man.

If you want to put up a monument to anything from the Confederacy to your beloved pet rock on private property, by all means feel free to do so.

Your gracious acquiescence is greatly appreciated.

I have zero strong feelings about that one way or another. But on public property? There are more stakeholders involved in that than you, and they do get a say on the subject.

Interestingly, I have already gone into this with other stakeholders, but I cannot say how much I appreciate your input.
 

ivanj05

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With respect, since I never said that, I'll decline to respond to this straw man.



Your gracious acquiescence is greatly appreciated.



Interestingly, I have already gone into this with other stakeholders, but I cannot say how much I appreciate your input.

As you do not seem interested in a sincere conversation on the subject, I won't trouble you about it further.
 

CMWinkler

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As you do not seem interested in a sincere conversation on the subject, I won't trouble you about it further.

Oh, I must have misunderstood your post. When someone describes the monument in which I am interested as my "pet rock," I assume they are not interested in a sincere discussion but, rather, are simply being facetious. If you want a sincere discussion I might suggest you begin such a discussion with more sincerity and less condescension.
 

jgoodguy

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Who owns the land on which it stands? If it stands on public ground, then it's not private speech. Who pays to maintain it? Taxpayers? Then it's not private speech.

Exactly. Way too much of the memorial issue is white folks wanting black folks to take care of monuments that the white folks seldom if ever visit, IMHO.
 

Andersonh1

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Who owns the land on which it stands? If it stands on public ground, then it's not private speech. Who pays to maintain it? Taxpayers? Then it's not private speech.

I didn't say it was private speech, I just said it was paid for with private money. I was responding to a post that said public money shouldn't be used to build these memorials. Whether I agree with that or not, the fact that the Lee statue was created with private funds seems not to make any difference.

So if the city takes it down, who owns it? Not the city, I would think, unless it was gifted to them when it was installed. And what could the upkeep possibly be on a stone statue? Unless they clean it every so often, it really doesn't cost the city anything for it to sit there. No public money is being spent on it, or if it is, it's minimal.

Its' the city's land, no question. They certainly have the legal right to remove it. But should they? Is anything useful accomplished by removing a century old Confederate memorial?

But on public property? There are more stakeholders involved in that than you, and they do get a say on the subject.

So the people who want it to remain and the people who don't, both presumably taxpayers with a stake in the end result, fight it out in court. Because both have a say in the public property on which it stands.
 
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Bee

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Is anything useful accomplished by removing a century old Confederate memorial?

My guess is that it would depend on who you ask. Perhaps the descendants of the enslaved would appreciate not having to look at/pay taxes towards the upkeep of monuments to those who enslaved their ancestors.
 

cash

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I didn't say it was private speech, I just said it was paid for with private money. I was responding to a post that said public money shouldn't be used to build these memorials.

One reason for that is the free speech issue. When public money is used it's not private speech but government speech.

Whether I agree with that or not, the fact that the Lee statue was created with private funds seems not to make any difference.

But it is on public ground and maintained by public funds. That means:
1. It's not private speech.
2. Those who oppose it are forced to support it through their tax dollars.
3. When enough members with the political power to do so decide to remove it, then they get to remove it.


So if the city takes it down, who owns it? Not the city, I would think, unless it was gifted to them when it was installed.

Since the city has been taking care of it, it seems to me it belongs to the city.

And what could the upkeep possibly be on a stone statue? Unless they clean it every so often, it really doesn't cost the city anything for it to sit there. No public money is being spent on it, or if it is, it's minimal.

Actually, it takes a bit of upkeep. Stone statues erode in the weather and need to be repaired on a periodic basis. Additionally, pigeon droppings need to be cleaned off, sometimes pieces break off and need to be repaired, vandalism needs to be repaired, metal tablets and/or plaques need to be maintained, stone needs to be refurbished. Talk with the maintenance folks at a national military park with monuments on it sometime. They keep pretty busy.

Its' the city's land, no question. They certainly have the legal right to remove it. But should they? Is anything useful accomplished by removing a century old Confederate memorial?

It's up to the city to determine, but if they did, then yes, something useful is accomplished. A majority of the city's citizens are no longer visually insulted every day of their lives.

So the people who want it to remain and the people who don't, both presumably taxpayers with a stake in the end result, fight it out in court. Because both have a say in the public property on which it stands.

Actually, they fight it out by electing representatives. A majority's representatives then decide what to do with the monuments, which they've done. A Federal judge has already dismissed a suit to keep monuments in place in New Orleans.
 

Andersonh1

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It's up to the city to determine, but if they did, then yes, something useful is accomplished. A majority of the city's citizens are no longer visually insulted every day of their lives.

1 - if you're insulted by a statue of Robert E. Lee, you've got too much time on your hands
2 - I seriously doubt it's a majority. Most of the activist groups that complain are fairly small. That's the pity of this whole movement... there is no groundswell of public demand to remove any of these monuments. It's always a few angry people or activists, or a few politicians looking for a vote.

Note that when all this really kicked into high gear, and the SC legislature was discussing the removal of the Confederate flag from the monument on the State House grounds that they didn't dare take the time to put it to a referendum of voters. They acted while emotion was still running high and took the flag down. I don't know what majority opinion is in SC, but I'd have liked the opportunity to find out.

And just watch... every attempt to remove a monument will be contested and end up in court. Sometimes the verdict will go one way, sometimes it will go the other, but a lot of time and energy and money will be spent on this issue, when these memorials are harming no one and nothing of substance will be accomplished by removing them.
 

cash

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1 - if you're insulted by a statue of Robert E. Lee, you've got too much time on your hands

So the opinions of black folks are simply trivial to you. Good to know.

2 - I seriously doubt it's a majority. Most of the activist groups that complain are fairly small. That's the pity of this whole movement... there is no groundswell of public demand to remove any of these monuments. It's always a few angry people or activists, or a few politicians looking for a vote.

New Orleans is majority black.

Note that when all this really kicked into high gear, and the SC legislature was discussing the removal of the Confederate flag from the monument on the State House grounds that they didn't dare take the time to put it to a referendum of voters. They acted while emotion was still running high and took the flag down. I don't know what majority opinion is in SC, but I'd have liked the opportunity to find out.

The move to get rid of the monuments has been in effect for several years.


And just watch... every attempt to remove a monument will be contested and end up in court. Sometimes the verdict will go one way, sometimes it will go the other, but a lot of time and energy and money will be spent on this issue, when these memorials are harming no one and nothing of substance will be accomplished by removing them.

So neoconfederates are just interested in wasting taxpayer money on frivolous lawsuits.
 

Andersonh1

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So the opinions of black folks are simply trivial to you. Good to know.

New Orleans is majority black.

Very well, instead of assuming every black citizen of New Orleans holds the same opinion (which is perilously close to stereotyping on your part), please produce the opinion surveys or other documentation of their opinion on the issue of taking down the statue of Lee, Davis, and Beauregard.

The move to get rid of the monuments has been in effect for several years.

Yes, but it's kicked into high gear ever since June 2015.

So neoconfederates are just interested in wasting taxpayer money on frivolous lawsuits.

Blame the people spending all the money trying to have them removed. Leave them alone, and there's little to no cost. It is telling that you seem to think defending historical monuments/art by people who care about them is an illegitimate expense, but spending tens of thousands or more to take them down is not.
 
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cash

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Very well, instead of assuming every black citizen of New Orleans holds the same opinion (which is perilously close to stereotyping on your part), please produce the opinion surveys or other documentation of their opinion on the issue of taking down the statue of Lee, Davis, and Beauregard.

The fact that their elected representatives oppose the monuments is compelling evidence the majority of their constituents oppose the monuments.

In one opinion poll, 46% of African-Americans in Louisiana support removing the monuments, 31% oppose removing the monuments, and 23% report being undecided. But that's statewide, not just in NOLA.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/10/louisianas_black_voters_split.html

The margin of error for the poll is 3.46%.
http://www.theneworleansadvocate.com/news/13585805-172/poll-overwhelming-opposition-statewide-to

Since there doesn't appear to be a poll centered on African-Americans in NOLA, the most reliable indicator we have is what their elected representatives are doing, and from the coverage there doesn't appear to be much opposition to monument removal from the NOLA African-American community. In watching the public meetings the city council held, it was notable that those opposed to removing the monuments were white.


Yes, but it's kicked into high gear ever since June 2015.

So? It's not a new thing. The NOLA City Council held public meetings on monument removal and received public commentary on it.

As to South Carolina, one poll has 66% of all South Carolinians supporting removing the flag, with 93% of African-Americans in South Carolina approving the removal of the flag.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/south-carolina-confederate-flag-poll_us_560c2606e4b0dd85030a44f7


Blame the people spending all the money trying to have them removed. Leave them alone, and there's little to no cost. It is telling that you seem to think defending historical monuments/art by people who care about them is an illegitimate expense, but spending tens of thousands or more to take them down is not.

The money being spent to remove the monuments is privately donated money, not taxpayer money.
 

Andersonh1

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The fact that their elected representatives oppose the monuments is compelling evidence the majority of their constituents oppose the monuments.

I could list hundreds or thousands of instances where elected representatives did things that the voters didn't like. No, this is not evidence.

In one opinion poll, 46% of African-Americans in Louisiana support removing the monuments, 31% oppose removing the monuments, and 23% report being undecided. But that's statewide, not just in NOLA.
http://www.nola.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/10/louisianas_black_voters_split.html

That's very interesting. I would have expected over half to want them removed if I had ventured a guess, but it's not even 50%. I read an article where black men and women from New Orleans were interviewed, and I looked for it last night and couldn't find it. I'd like to have posted it here as a sampling of opinions. One guy wanted the statue removed, one said "the dude is just chillin', leave him alone", and one guy said "I don't give a **** about that statue!"


I'm glad to see that 2/3 of Louisiana voters oppose removing the monuments. To quote the article: The poll found that 68 percent of those surveyed across the state opposed removing the Confederate monuments, while 18 percent favored the move.

“When you have 68 to 18 lopsided percentages, that’s an indication that there’s serious saliency to an issue,” Faucheux said. “I would point out that twice as many were undecided (about whom to vote for) in the governor’s race than were undecided about this issue.”

I find that heartening. I had expected most people not to care, but the fact that a majority oppose the move is good news. I appreciate you sharing the numbers. I hadn't seen that poll.

More black respondents supported removal (46 percent) than opposed it (31 percent), but the poll showed there there is nothing close to consensus on the issue in the African-American community.

"Personally, I would have expected a larger percentage of black voters in favor of removing (the monuments). That wasn't the case," Faucheux said. "But that's what you do polls for."

White voters, on the other hand, were far more unified in their opposition to removing the monuments. About 85 percent wanted to keep the monuments in place. Only 5 percent want them taken down.

That was another surprise, Faucheux said. Voters, especially white voters, around the state had very strong feelings, even though the debate has been focused on New Orleans, where Mayor Mitch Landrieu is leading an effort to remove statues of three Confederate grandees -- Robert E. Lee, P.G.T. Beauregard and Jefferson Davis -- as well as a monument commemorating the Battle of Liberty Place, the bloody culmination of an 1874 coup launched by ex-Confederates against the integrated Reconstruction government.


As to South Carolina, one poll has 66% of all South Carolinians supporting removing the flag, with 93% of African-Americans in South Carolina approving the removal of the flag.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/south-carolina-confederate-flag-poll_us_560c2606e4b0dd85030a44f7

I went to Winthrop. and I have reason not to really trust their polling. Still, given what happened in Charleston, I'm not surprised at the results. I see the poll was taken back in September of last year... I wonder what the results would be now?

The money being spent to remove the monuments is privately donated money, not taxpayer money.

The money being spent to defend them is private money.
 

cash

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I could list hundreds or thousands of instances where elected representatives did things that the voters didn't like. No, this is not evidence.

The African Americans of New Orleans apparently are approving the action because there doesn't seem to be a backlash among black New Orleanians. In fact, there appear to be cheers.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/17/us/new-orleans-confederate-monuments-vote/

That's very interesting. I would have expected over half to want them removed if I had ventured a guess, but it's not even 50%. I read an article where black men and women from New Orleans were interviewed, and I looked for it last night and couldn't find it. I'd like to have posted it here as a sampling of opinions. One guy wanted the statue removed, one said "the dude is just chillin', leave him alone", and one guy said "I don't give a **** about that statue!"

Again, that's a statewide poll with an inordinately large number of undecideds.

I'm glad to see that 2/3 of Louisiana voters oppose removing the monuments. To quote the article: The poll found that 68 percent of those surveyed across the state opposed removing the Confederate monuments, while 18 percent favored the move.

“When you have 68 to 18 lopsided percentages, that’s an indication that there’s serious saliency to an issue,” Faucheux said. “I would point out that twice as many were undecided (about whom to vote for) in the governor’s race than were undecided about this issue.”

I find that heartening. I had expected most people not to care, but the fact that a majority oppose the move is good news. I appreciate you sharing the numbers. I hadn't seen that poll.

Over 80% of whites in Louisiana support the monuments, but the vast majority of those folks don't live in New Orleans. Perhaps they can pool their money and move the monuments to one of their own towns.


More black respondents supported removal (46 percent) than opposed it (31 percent), but the poll showed there there is nothing close to consensus on the issue in the African-American community.

"Personally, I would have expected a larger percentage of black voters in favor of removing (the monuments). That wasn't the case," Faucheux said. "But that's what you do polls for."

White voters, on the other hand, were far more unified in their opposition to removing the monuments. About 85 percent wanted to keep the monuments in place. Only 5 percent want them taken down.

That was another surprise, Faucheux said. Voters, especially white voters, around the state had very strong feelings, even though the debate has been focused on New Orleans, where Mayor Mitch Landrieu is leading an effort to remove statues of three Confederate grandees -- Robert E. Lee, P.G.T. Beauregard and Jefferson Davis -- as well as a monument commemorating the Battle of Liberty Place, the bloody culmination of an 1874 coup launched by ex-Confederates against the integrated Reconstruction government.

Compare the poll results with the caucus results in Iowa and with the election results in New Hampshire. Looking at the poll results, who would have predicted the first place finisher among Republicans in Iowa and the second place finisher among Republicans in New Hampshire? Polls aren't the be-all and end-all, though when we have huge numbers such as the white population in this poll, we can be fairly sure they're close to accurate. In the case of large numbers of undecideds, there could be a number of reasons for those results and we have to be careful in drawing conclusions based on them.

I went to Winthrop. and I have reason not to really trust their polling. Still, given what happened in Charleston, I'm not surprised at the results. I see the poll was taken back in September of last year... I wonder what the results would be now?

And what reason do you have to not trust their polling? Are they a substandard university? Do their professors not know anything? Are they unqualified?


The money being spent to defend them is private money.

The city's defense against lawsuits is taxpayer money that the opponents are wasting with frivolous lawsuits.
 

jgoodguy

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The African Americans of New Orleans apparently are approving the action because there doesn't seem to be a backlash among black New Orleanians. In fact, there appear to be cheers.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/17/us/new-orleans-confederate-monuments-vote/



Again, that's a statewide poll with an inordinately large number of undecideds.



Over 80% of whites in Louisiana support the monuments, but the vast majority of those folks don't live in New Orleans. Perhaps they can pool their money and move the monuments to one of their own towns.




Compare the poll results with the caucus results in Iowa and with the election results in New Hampshire. Looking at the poll results, who would have predicted the first place finisher among Republicans in Iowa and the second place finisher among Republicans in New Hampshire? Polls aren't the be-all and end-all, though when we have huge numbers such as the white population in this poll, we can be fairly sure they're close to accurate. In the case of large numbers of undecideds, there could be a number of reasons for those results and we have to be careful in drawing conclusions based on them.



And what reason do you have to not trust their polling? Are they a substandard university? Do their professors not know anything? Are they unqualified?




The city's defense against lawsuits is taxpayer money that the opponents are wasting with frivolous lawsuits.

Problems with poll. Telephone poll more than likely only land lines will be sampled not cell phones bias will be toward old white folks with land lines with young and minorities with cell phone under represented.


Majority oppose removing Confederate monuments - WWL-TV
According to the statewide telephone poll of 800 registered voters, conducted for WWL-TV and The Advocate by Clarus Research Group, an overwhelming 68 percent of the voters surveyed said they oppose the renaming or removal of Confederate monuments. Only 18 percent support the monuments' removal or renaming. Nine percent were undecided.

May not represent New Orleans.

http://theadvocate.com/news/13585805-123/poll-overwhelming-opposition-statewide-to
Ron Faucheux, who conducted the poll for The Advocate and WWL-TV, acknowledges that the size of the survey’s sample in New Orleans was not large enough to determine sentiment there. His Clarus Research Group personally interviewed 800 likely voters across the state by telephone from Sept. 20 through Sept. 23. The margin of error is 3.46 percent.
18953248-mmmain.jpg
 

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Will Carry

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So if a certain poll disagrees with your stance, attack the poll and discredit it. Then find another poll that supports your argument and flaunt it. The original post simply asked if the Confederate veterans deserved new monuments. An obvious troll but it makes for good banter. I don't think there will be an obvious winner in this debate. I don't think anyone will change their minds either. I know I'm enjoying it so please....have at it.
 

major bill

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Also the elected officials can ignore the polls if they want to. Remember an elected official does not have to please everyone to get reelected, only those who vote. The big question is how do the voters of that city, or the voters of the ward feel?
 

Borderruffian

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My question would be" Do Yankees deserve new monuments?" The men who fought for the south deserve to be remembered by their respective states as much as the oh so saintly and unsullied men who served the Union.
To ignore or lessen their courage or fortitude over some current slight by certain groups does them and history a disservice
You're not required to pay tribute too or agree with cause,but you can't ignore history just because it dose'nt give warm fuzzies and make you think all has always been right with the US.
 

cash

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I suppose as a descendant of a person who owned no slaves and eked out a meager existence before the war that was conscripted to fight for the Confederacy and then came back to burned out homes and torched farmlands, never able to rebuild his his meager existence, that I would want to remove Confederate monuments, but I don't because its part of this country's history. The good, the bad and the ugly parts all deserve to be remembered. While I don't agree with their beliefs, I do respect that they fought and died for something and I wouldn't disrespect them by removing monuments. I don't see Confederate monuments as a way of glorifying the south or the Confederacy or what it stood for, I just see it as a way of remembering those who died.

So would you not have known about your ancestor if it weren't for monuments in the South? If the monuments disappeared tomorrow would you no longer know about your ancestor? Does it take a monument to Robert E. Lee for someone to remember they had an ancestor who fought in the Civil War? My point is that it doesn't take a monument to remember those who came before. Monuments are a statement of who or what is worthy of being honored. In the case of many confederate monuments they are a reminder to African Americans to remain in their "place" because the power structure that erected those monuments was a white power structure that didn't care what they thought.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
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So if a certain poll disagrees with your stance, attack the poll and discredit it. Then find another poll that supports your argument and flaunt it. The original post simply asked if the Confederate veterans deserved new monuments. An obvious troll but it makes for good banter. I don't think there will be an obvious winner in this debate. I don't think anyone will change their minds either. I know I'm enjoying it so please....have at it.

Personally, I wouldn't have posted a poll, but it was requested, so I posted what I found.

Polls need to be taken with a grain of salt, though as I said when there is an overwhelming response it can probably be taken as reasonably accurate.
 
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