DIMENSIONS OR TEMPLATE OF PENNSYLVANIA or KENTUCKY RIFLE STOCK

BANG

Private
Joined
Dec 21, 2014
/ Hi ----finally built --after 12 attempts --a working French lock )
took 3 months to find basic dimensions of a flintlock /parts sizes etc

now ---( novice ) would like to mortise /install that crude replica in a mahogany ( African )
blank I cut /seasoned one year ago --

and -----the nightmare began --AGAIN !
thousands of nice fotos of stock blanks
no relevant dimensions /template /shown anywhere
all I want is those classic wrist to butt /barrel curve angle and all other width / taper dimensions
so far --I have a sketch of a Philadelphia type stock BLANK --
--- ALL I know --its 6 ft tall ----10-12 wide and 3 inches thick

but that's ridiculous --how to cut /shape /carve all other relevant details

can anyone help with all those mportant measurements ---or post a foto with dimensions drawn
ie --side /top /end views of a classic 18 th cent stock
would really appreciate
( no --I do not want " track of the wolf catalog "
just stock dimensions --please ?

thanku so much
Bang--- ( Southern African bush workshop ) rather primitive but viable ---

img072.jpg SHAPE OF LOCL STOCK.jpg


GUN WOOD STOCK stock BLANKS.jpg
 
wonder how thick the trigger cam plate --on a flintlock is?
---still guessing '
how big is that trigger /cam plate assembly?
appreciate dimensions--( for home made lock )
 
Keep asking. Saw this thread for the first time today. Can't help you, but someone can.
 
I can answer your question, but I can't give you the answer that you want for the simple reason that there is no such thing as what you are asking for. I have taken classes for building a classic Pennsylvania rifle, I even have a set of blueprints around somewhere, but there are simply no dimensions on it.

The process begins with the barrel, not the lock. You inlet the stock for the barrel first. You then inlet the stock to position the lock in the correct location relative to the barrel. Once those two parts are installed you then begin shaping the stock to what will be the final dimensions. The final dimensions are determined by whatever size the barrel and the lock that you used and according to the "school" that you are trying to mimic. A school was essentially a group of gunsmiths that built rifles in a similar style. Gunsmiths from different counties would build guns that were different from each other. Thus, there can be hundreds, if not thousands, of possible final dimensions. Without knowing the size of your lock, the size of your barrel, and the school that you wish to mimic even an experienced gunsmith cannot even begin to help you. Modern gunsmiths spend many years learning how to do all of this. Here is a link to some articles about the process that could possibly help you:

http://www.americanlongrifles.com/WorkShop_frame.htm

You should also explore everything else on that website, lots of links that can help you, including some forums where you could ask questions.

http://www.americanlongrifles.org/forum/

Good luck!
 
Thankyou ROB 63 for your advice & --appreciate --but I am perplexed!
when you say --the dimensions of a Kentucky OR Philadelphia long rifle --does not exist
then I must disagree
a master lock maker --in Poland ---nice fella
has just sent me a detailed drawing / schematic --called the BECK DIMENSIONS OF A STOCK
--- it HAS most of the most important dimensions ---labelled in --although not too clear MANY mysteries --as a novice I will eventually learn the weird jargon--

the wrist / butt classic--- curve angle-- I so desperately sought after ( 22o deg obtuse angle )
is clearly shown ---plus many other dimensions - some are puzzling--not too clear a drawing --

I have a French lock 1770 from a PDF sent from UK -& Europe-( I have asked many pestering questions but --it finally works well -thanks to huge help from Mark ELLIOT -? 6 OTHER forums --great people ----wonderful advice on mettalurgy /spring tempering in the backwoods
Have pested experts on --4 other--blackpowder muzzle-loader forums on 3 continents --for past 4 months

dimensions /blueprints /patterns --do exist !--just have to keep searching
all it really takes is really quite simple -- not ROCKET SCIENCE for heavens sake

just grab hold of a nice American walnut fancy classic flintlock long rifle --any period -not fussy
any will do --just love those vintage classic-- wrist /comb lines--!
--and MEASURE the stock ----every part ---that's relevant ie-- wrist thickness /upper forearm length
butt height ----width at lock area ----those basic measurements are important for sawing the rough blank out of a huge LOG cannot keep working blind ?

ALL I have is a huge mahogany beam ---- CUT roughly 6ft x 6 inchesthick x 14 inches wide --well seasoned
and I have NO IDEA where to find a basic shape --scaling up /guessing is a dead end
DIMENSIONS --DIMENSIONS ---- any one building a house or car or bow or gun --needs some sort of rough guide or measurements ? surely ?got to start somewhere ---this is a first for me --obviously made many stupid errors ----too thin --wrong angles ---no template or sillohette or any guide --just hundreds of fotos !----no good-----
nice to pop round to your blank stock supplier --or order the pre-inletted stock s--custom made---
I live very far in the bush from such luxuries ---but ----love to build it from scratch ---that's all I asked for!
how on earth --do I guess --as a novice ----how wide /long /deep ---to saw the rough blank profile?
I have ruined 15 locks by guessing ---no DIMENSIONS ---then I was given a break --from Poland --dead accurate dimensions ---for every single part of a French lock ---- huge PDF--- With detailed analysis of its spring tensions ---which parts to case harden /dynamic working of this lock etc etc--brilliant --took 6 months to find ---
how you can say dimensions do not exist --is astounding
surely several thousand flintlock ./long rifle owners --can send me a rough drawing --with measurements drawn in ?
BECK drawing -shows for example-of a long rifle stock ---no idea what period ---

1--overall length=59 inches
2--trigger pull ---ie trigger to butt =137/8 inches
3-butt height 4 -3/4 inches
4--wrist height ---1.45 inches
5--wrist width--1.32 inches
6 width ---at lock TAIL ?--1.65 inches
7 drop of butt-2 inches -?----( does this 2 INCHES --GIVES THE CLASSIC CURVE FROM BUTT INTO FOREARM)??---no -- I think its deeper --angle of 220 degrees -obtuse angle !
( I assume ? ) I give up --keep throwing away ridiculous mistakes ----begging for a few accurate measurements is going no-where--- but THOSE DIMENSIONS DO EXIST ---SOMEWHERE!
8 lock plate width --7/8 inch ?? makes no sense ----lock plate ? width ? with cock hammer /springs etc installed ---ie the mortise hole for the lock has to be HOW DEEP ? 7/8 inch??? --again ---DIMENSIONS
( TOO DEEP & WEAKEN the lock wood area--
where exactly do you position the lock on the stock when you have no barrel ?
again --dimensions required
yet --they don't exist ?250 yrs of lock building worldwide ----& 7 NO -ONE HAS RECORDED
A SAVED / FILED / SKETCHED A BASIC STOCK SHAPE DIMENSIONS?
I tried to build the trigger /square cam plate etc ----7 attempts ----finally -without dimensions --got it working --that's really stupid logic ---

IF some kind person has a pre-carved blank stock for ANY type of flintlock rifle
please ---measure the outline /with /length for me ----please
so I can begin to cut the 20 th attempt at a stock without ruining rare mahogany trees
appreciate-- Bang

BeckDimensions1.jpg


POACHER --WITH DODGY 18 CENT FLINTLOCK.jpg


img072.jpg SHAPE OF LOCL STOCK.jpg
 
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I think that you really need to consider what rob63 has said. Even if you do get your hands on a full set of stock dimensions your parts will not necessarily fit correctly. Find the center of the top of your board and inlet your barrel and tang. After that you will need to mark and fit your lock flat. I assume you are using a military type lock, if so it will be larger than most civilian locks. That will require a longer, and possibly taller stock flat. If you pre-cut or carve anything you will waste your blank.

Cheers,
Garrett
 
Hello, BANG,

I was just looking at the plan dimensions you found and spotted one measurement (or, rather, the way to make the measurement) that might give you some trouble. When calculating the drop at heel, measure from a line that runs through the notch in the rear sight--not over the top of the sight. Better still, measure along the top of the barrel before sights are installed. It seems as though it would be a subtle difference, but it's not. A 2-inch drop at heel, when measured from a line over the top of the sight, will be dramatically higher than if measured over the barrel. It might place the comb so high that you'd have difficulty getting your eye to align the sights. Further, it might not give you the wrist curve you desire. 2" heel drop sounds much more like a contemporary stock dimension to me. I think you should try to draw those dimensions out full scale on a piece of paper or cardboard to verify that they will yield the graceful stock angle you desire.

This link is about shotgun stock dimensions, but it will show some dramatic differences and also how to take proper measurements. One of the examples is an old Parker shotgun with more than 3" of drop at the heel. I think you'll agree that its wrist curve looks much more like what you're trying to achieve.

I also love the beauty of the wrist curve and heel drop in those old stocks. People fired those old long guns with a more erect head stance than we tend to use today. I've just got a hunch you're going to want more than a 2" drop.

Finally, I also want to recommend americanlongrifles.org as a resource. I'm sure the rifle makers who inhabit those forums can give you a tremendous amount of help.

Good luck with your project!
 
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Hi, again, BANG. Just looking at the plan drawing one more time. I'm convinced it contains a critical error in the drop measurement. If the butt height is 4 & 3/4", then the drop in that drawing is much closer to 4". Just look at it carefully and you'll see what I mean. Please draw your own stock (at least from the lock to the butt) full scale to determine your desired measurements.
 
Jim Chambers is one of the best places to look. Google them, they sell kits and parts for rifle builders, and an excellent DVD on building a long rifle. The DVD shows the process of building one of their kits from beginning to end. Even if you're building from scratch, you'll see the proper use of tools and methods. Now for a real education, you could attend the Dixon gun fair held in the summer at Kempton, PA. If it's feasible to get there, it runs three days and admission is free. Lots to see from smithing a barrel the old way to finished guns. Loads of seminars and some of the best builders attend. I believe you can even camp on the grounds. The best known places to get drawings would be, Jim Chambers, Dixie Gun Works, and Track Of The Wolf. Do a search, there's even a Long Rifle Society of gun makers. I'm sure you'll find what you want.
 
Here's mine, I didn't build it, a fellow in Tennessee did, but it may give you some ideas. Early style with the wide but, "short" 38" .54 swamped barrel. The swamped barrel and stock dimensions make it a natural pointer and a well balanced arm. I could do without the set trigger though. A rifle needn't be fancy either, just well built with the best parts available.
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Hey, Hickory, that's a nice piece you've got there. It's aged in a pretty convincing way and it has a number of nice little stock details, too. I'll bet it's a fun shooter!
 
WOW !
Thankyou Old Hickory ---and Lieutenant Patrick H
what gorgeous stunning woodwork!

that's the shape I want!---superb ---you Americans are blessed with great timber types --walnut /figured maple etc
astounding colors of the grain --tiger stripes ---makes me green with envy

We Africans have huge forests ---so many hardwoods --many too heavy -( like leadwood and Ebony /acacia species
but some have superb grain /light hardwood --asa I am a total novice at long rifle stocks --
really need some pattern /template ---but without dimensions ---------I am lost --
scaling up has been disasterous ---guessing /estimating WRIST / curve butt forearm --width /thickness etc --all failed

cut too big or too short or too crooked ---
I give up --really tried

thanku you all so much
(maybe --Old Hickory could draw in the dimensions over that wonderful stock shape of his --I have no idea where to begin ---its 6 ft long 12 inch wide --6 inch thick ---but that angle ?--has me baffled

how on earth DO the makers of Kentucky& Pennsylvania stocks --cut out the basic shape ---?
there must be a blueprint somewhere ----2 months now --still no luck --all other forums say dimensions non-existent !
I refuse to believe this statement --will keep on begging searching
regards -- Bang
 
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