Did the north have the moral ground and 1860

Battalion

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johan_steele said:
IMHO Treason is the basest form of betrayal. However; in fairness treason is merely a matter of dates and winners and losers.

The only real credence I can give the Revolutionaries of 1776 is that they were in a situation where there were two sets of laws: one for the English and one for the Americans and there was certainly a degree of screwing over the colonists going on. Was it a valid /legit reason for a revolution? History has made that decision fo me.

Nothing I have seen shows me this to be true of the South in 1860.

"Nothing I have seen shows me this to be true of the South in 1860"

~~~

Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes
...in Britain in 1776.....................................................No
 

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Battalion

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I doubt if Southerners regarded themselves as "treasonous."

Treason against who?-

Thaddeus Stevens?....David Hunter?....Sherman?

~~~

Assisting one of Sherman's miscreants to burn down your neighbor's house...

...is "loyal?"

Loyal to what?
 

johan_steele

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Battalion said:
I doubt if Southerners regarded themselves as "treasonous."

Treason against who?- Read what Joe Johnston had to say on the subject. You've put up a pure straw man argument; treason was not against a who; but a what. It was treason against the United States of America and everything it stood for. Incidently the avaerage CS soldier wasn't commiting treason IMHO, the officers & politicains who forsaked their oathes are another matter altogether. When an oath is held only so long as it is convenient... so much for honor and integrity.

Thaddeus Stevens?....David Hunter?....Sherman? How do you figure these men could have treason commited against them? Another straw man argument... and a pretty weak one at that.
~~~

Assisting one of Sherman's miscreants to burn down your neighbor's house...

...is "loyal?" More emotionaly charged rhetoric w/ little bassis in anything especially fact.

Loyal to what?

Were the men of the 1st AL Cav (US), 1st SC US & other units raised from states in Rebellion treasonous or patriotic... or any less courageous than their brethern? Never mind I already know your answer.
 

johan_steele

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Battalion said:
"Nothing I have seen shows me this to be true of the South in 1860"

~~~

Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes
...in Britain in 1776.....................................................No
Usual rhetoric... what particular massively lethal slave rebellion would you be talking about? Whoops there wasn't one. John Browns attempt at one was put down by the US military... Wouldn't want the facts to get in the way of good Lost Cause rhetoric would we?
 

johan_steele

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Of coarse there are always the words of the men at the time...

"Davis is venal and corrupt, and the Confederate Congress is no better." Thomas J. Withers Not my words... though I agree w/ them.
____
"Jefferson Davis is not only a dishonest man, but a liar." Barnwell Rhett See above.___

"I have been up to see the Congress and they do not seem to be able to do anything except to eat peanuts and chew tobacco, while my army is starving." Robert E. Lee Appears as though the CS Congress was little more effective than the US...___

"I am one of those dull creatures that cannot see the good of secession." Robert E. Lee Who are we to argue w/ the great Lee; incidently I think he was onto something.
____

Colonel Robert E. Lee met with Francis Blair Sr. in his home on Pennsylvania Avenue and told him, "I come to you on the part of President Lincoln to ask whether any inducement that he can offer will prevail on you to take command of the Union army?"

Lee responded "Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four million of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?" Anarchy... Lee apparently believed that. I agree.___

"The South went to war on account of slavery...South Carolina went to war as she said in her secession proclamation, because slavery would not be secure under Lincoln...don't you think South Carolina ought to know why it went to war?" John Singleton Mosby I have a distinct impression that Mosby might have known what he was talking about. THe words of the men of time are quite clear.
 

unionblue

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Battalion,

How many in the North advocated slave insurrection and the death of women and children? What administration actively pursued such goals? What percentage of the Northern population in 1860 supported the idea of a violent slave insurrection?

Saying it don't make it so. Show us.

Unionblue
 

Battalion

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johan_steele said:
It was treason against the United States of America and everything it stood for.
"Everything it stood for"

Including the Constitution?

...which Lincoln and others violated at every turn.

js said:
Battalion- "Thaddeus Stevens?....David Hunter?....Sherman?

How do you figure these men could have treason commited against them? Another straw man argument... and a pretty weak one at that.
They are part of the "glorious" Union.

js said:
Battalion- "Assisting one of Sherman's miscreants to burn down your neighbor's house...
...is "loyal?"

More emotionaly charged rhetoric w/ little bassis in anything especially fact.
"Emotionally charged"?????........:laugh1:

No. There's far more fact than emotion.
 

johan_steele

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Actually Battalion, it is nothing but emotion and straw man arguments w/ a few facts sprinkled in for flavor. Your "So it is said" charges to counter the words of the time and other instances are rather telling. It is fascinating to me how a thread labeled "Did the North have the Moral high ground in 1860" Can so easily be turned into ad hominum attacks against Lincoln... when he hadn't yet taken office in 1860 and his actions as president cannot be taken into account if the subject is 1860.

Once again what massive slave Rebellion (fiction fueled rhetoric) was supported by the evil "north" trying to murder innocent southerners? John Browns attempt at one was put down by the US Military... which should have made it quite obvious that the US govt was likely to put down such attempts at Rebellion. If thta wasn't enough anyone who had a clue what had happened w/ the Mormons just a few years prior to that should have known how a Rebellion would be dealt w/... I wonder why no Southern secessionists threatened to secede over that? Wouldn't be because slavery wasn't a question could it?

While you were busy attacking me again Neil asked you pretty much the same question... might be more convincing for your argument if you weren't already dodging it.

While you are chewing on that what do you say of what the men I quoted, some of them justifiably thought of as heroes, had to say on Secession?
 

william42

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Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes

Wow. That's a pretty strong statement there Battalion. I can't wait til you post the sources to support that one. Do you really believe that or are you just trying to stir things up a bit? If you do believe it please post your support sources. Thanks.

Terry
 

Battalion

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william42 said:
Wow. That's a pretty strong statement there Battalion. I can't wait til you post the sources to support that one. Do you really believe that or are you just trying to stir things up a bit? If you do believe it please post your support sources. Thanks.

Terry
Starter set for you-

John Brown
Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe
Thomas Wentworth Higginson
Theodore Parker
Franklin Sanborn
Gerrit Smith
George Luther Stearns
 

trice

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Battalion said:
Starter set for you-

John Brown
Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe
Thomas Wentworth Higginson
Theodore Parker
Franklin Sanborn
Gerrit Smith
George Luther Stearns
OK. That's John Brown (captured by Federal troops, turned over to state authorities, executed) and the "Secret Six" who supported him. Trivia answered.

Now what is it you mean by this? It seems to me you were asked to support your earlier statement, and have avoided the opportunity to do so. Why not just say what you mean clearly?

More trivia, since you seem to like things that have a murky connection to the topic under discussion: my Dad's old boss, Sidney Emsig, used to own a farm up in New York that John Brown had lived on, and the family might still own it after Sidney's death. I don't think old Sidney was an abolitionist, though he might have been if he lived then and thought about it. He had a very definite sense of honor and followed his beliefs rigorously.

Regards,
Tim
 

william42

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Advocates of slave insurrection and the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-

...advocates in the Northern United States in 1860..........Yes
Originally Posted by Battalion
Starter set for you-

John Brown
Dr. Samuel Gridley Howe
Thomas Wentworth Higginson
Theodore Parker
Franklin Sanborn
Gerrit Smith
George Luther Stearns
Which of those guys came out in favor of the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-"? And which document(s) or book(s) are you using as your source(s) for that claim? (chapter and page numbers please, if you will.)

Also, please include the date(s) when any of those mentioned above, or anybody at all, actually indicated that they would like to see the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-" Thanks.

TW
 

Battalion

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william42 said:




Which of those guys came out in favor of the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-"? And which document(s) or book(s) are you using as your source(s) for that claim? (chapter and page numbers please, if you will.)

Also, please include the date(s) when any of those mentioned above, or anybody at all, actually indicated that they would like to see the "indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children-" Thanks.

TW
Please tell us what slave insurrection did not result in...
...the indiscriminate slaughter of men, women, and children?

~~~

Thomas Wentworth Higginson

"...wrote to Richard Watson Gilder, the editor of The Century Magazine. Declaring his remorse only for not having urged the deployment of what he called More Practical Terror in the days prior to the raid on Harper's Ferry, he summarized the botched insurrection: We did what we did. In the end, we were trying to do right. And I believe, in the greatest measure, that we did do right."

Timothy McVeigh, Eric Robert Rudolph, the Unabomber, etc., would say/have said the same.

"In retrospect, I think the bombing of a few fine southern buildings, or a few famous southern men, with notes crediting the blasts to some choice northern abolitionist groups, would have done the job. Such action would have brought disunion quickly, and without risk to any from our side. The Russian revolutionists, who were so efficient in making the tyrant Tsar Alexander II explode, have much to teach us about practical terror...."

...

"...The elegant emphatic Higginson pulled no punches, making it clear...that he and his friends had been entirely aware of Brown's intent to incite a slave rebellion in Virginia"
http://www.bungalowshop.com/sanborn/chapter25.html
 

unionblue

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Battalion,

You nibble around the edges, but never provide a main course.

And to top it off, you run up to the 20th & 21st centuries to provide what?

Provide the sources which prove a call for the murder of women and children by Northern leaders, people, etc.

Unionblue
 

Battalion

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unionblue said:
Battalion,

You nibble around the edges, but never provide a main course.

And to top it off, you run up to the 20th & 21st centuries to provide what?

Provide the sources which prove a call for the murder of women and children by Northern leaders, people, etc.

Unionblue
Pray tell me.....

...How are their own words (whether it's said in 1860 or 1900) not proof of it?
 

johan_steele

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Battalion said:
Pray tell me.....

...How are their own words (whether it's said in 1860 or 1900) not proof of it?
Good point... here.
"Davis is venal and corrupt, and the Confederate Congress is no better." Thomas J. Withers

"Jefferson Davis is not only a dishonest man, but a liar." Barnwell Rhett

"I have been up to see the Congress and they do not seem to be able to do anything except to eat peanuts and chew tobacco, while my army is starving." Robert E. Lee

"I am one of those dull creatures that cannot see the good of secession." Robert E. Lee

Colonel Robert E. Lee met with Francis Blair Sr. in his home on Pennsylvania Avenue and told him, "I come to you on the part of President Lincoln to ask whether any inducement that he can offer will prevail on you to take command of the Union army?"

Lee responded "Mr. Blair, I look upon secession as anarchy. If I owned the four million of slaves in the South I would sacrifice them all to the Union; but how can I draw my sword upon Virginia, my native state?"

"The South went to war on account of slavery...South Carolina went to war as she said in her secession proclamation, because slavery would not be secure under Lincoln...don't you think South Carolina ought to know why it went to war?" John Singleton Mosby

The words of the men of time are quite clear... proof if you will.
 

Battalion

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"The President is nothing more than a well-meaning baboon…I went to the White House directly after tea where I found “the original Gorilla” about as intelligent as ever. What a specimen to be at the head of our affairs now!"

General George McClellan on Abraham Lincoln

~~~

"Where did the long-armed baboon come from?"

"A long, lank creature from Illinois, wearing a dirty linen duster for a coat and the back of which perspiration had splotched wide stains that resembled a map of the continent."


Edwin M. Stanton description of Abraham Lincoln, 1854
 

trice

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Battalion said:
"The President is nothing more than a well-meaning baboon…I went to the White House directly after tea where I found “the original Gorilla” about as intelligent as ever. What a specimen to be at the head of our affairs now!"

General George McClellan on Abraham Lincoln
OK, so George McClellan did not like Abraham Lincoln. Evidence would show that McClellan had a bad thing to say about *anyone* who had authority over him. It didn't matter whether it was Lincoln, Winfield Scott, or anyone else. In the case of Lincoln it may have been even worse, since Lincoln had once been a lawyer hired to represent the RR McClellan was running in the 1850s (along with Stanton, IIRR).

So what, exactly, is your intended point in presenting this quote from McClellan? Are you trying to show us that General McClellan was an arrogant, foolish man who insulted his superiors and courted dismissal for conduct unbecoming to an officer in the US Army, and possible charges of insubordination?

Battalion said:
"Where did the long-armed baboon come from?"

"A long, lank creature from Illinois, wearing a dirty linen duster for a coat and the back of which perspiration had splotched wide stains that resembled a map of the continent."

Edwin M. Stanton description of Abraham Lincoln, 1854
Hmm. One lawyer with political ambition disparaging another, in an age where personal insult and mudslinging was a common form of campaigning. Not too surprising. Yet we can also note that this very man Stanton would be brought into Lincoln's cabinet, serve faithfully, and become in the end one of Lincoln's most ardent supporters.

Again, what is your point in bringing this into the debate on secession here? Do you actually mean to say or imply something? If so, please clearly specify what you mean.

Regards,
Tim
 

william42

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Battalion, your attempts to bolster your argument brings to mind a few phrases which I'll share with you: "thin ice"....."on the ropes"..."grasping at straws"..."way out in left field" (attributed originally to the one and only Babe Ruth). Nice try, though. I do look forward to your posts, if not for accuracy and truth, at least for the entertainment value. Keep 'em comin'! :D

TW
 


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