Did the CSA want Southern California as a state or just for the war?

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#1
The Confederates wanted Southern California, but in what capacity just to yield the state for it's resources during the war and give it back to the USA in the peace negotiations or did they want the southern half of it after the war and make it a state
 

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#2
The Confederates wanted Southern California, but in what capacity just to yield the state for it's resources during the war and give it back to the USA in the peace negotiations or did they want the southern half of it after the war and make it a state
Here's the problem with the Confederacy wanting at least San Bernardino County has a Confederate Territory; at the critical battle of Glorieta Pass approximately 1.1 K Union troops turned back about the same number of Confederate troops. How exactly basically one full sized regiment is supposed to seize present day New Mexico,Arizona and at least San Bernardino County us quite the mystery.
Since we have a poster @James Lutzweiler who claims that seizing California was the major cause if the ACW in order to facilitate trade with China why the Confederacy though one regiment was adequate enough to seize all that Territory?
Leftyhunter
 
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#4
Well the Confederates seemed to being giving thought to securing Colorado first.
Not aware of any major Confederate Army offensive into the Colorado Territory. I know most of the Union troops involved in the battle of Glorieta Pass were from the present day states of Colorado and New Mexico.
Leftyhunter
 

Eric Calistri

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#7
No Confederate government official in a responsible position gave serious thought to seizing southern California.

I am not sure this view is correct. Major Teel, who was on Sibley's Staff in New Mexico, stated "The objective aim and design of the campaign was the conquest of California." and that “"On to San Francisco” would be the watchword" in the article he wrote after the war that is in Battle and Leaders.

Teel, though he did not personally meet with Jefferson Davis, believes Davis was fully on board with Sibley's objectives.
 

jackt62

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#8
The Confederate Congress declared war on the United States on May 6, 1861. However, it specifically excluded a declaration of war against states and territories that it claimed to be part of the southern confederacy (outside of Tennessee and North Carolina which had not yet seceded.) These included the territories of Arizona, New Mexico, and so-called Indian Territory. This would appear to provide the confederacy with legal justification for carrying out military operations in those areas. But as seen in the Confederate Constitution (below)
the Confederacy did not make any claim on California or any parts thereof.

"war exists between the Confederate States and the Government of the United States and the States and Territories thereof, except the States of Maryland, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, Missouri, and Delaware, and the Territories of Arizona and New Mexico, and the Indian Territory south of Kansas:"
 

diane

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#9
The Colorado Territory was Southern California. Winfield Scott recalled A S Johnston from his Pacific command because he thought Johnston might know of secessionists (which he did) and sympathize with them. Along with the Californios and Confederate sympathizers, there was a lot of secessionist sentiment and the Pico Act of 1859 had separated the state into North and South. However, the simple admission of California to the Union as a free-soil state upset the balance in the Senate and hastened the South's departure. There was also a movement for the Republic of the Pacific, which would in effect, make an independent nation of the entire West Coast.

Southern interest in Alta California preceded the war - Davis as Secretary of State had an ambitious plan to connect SoCal with the South through railroads. The ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach and San Diego would benefit Southern commerce a great deal. It would be about 40 or 50 years (1905 I believe) before Mulholland was able to begin the LA Aquaduct project, which made Los Angeles a very rich city indeed - but Davis was thinking of this, too. The Confederacy also had an eye on Mexico, as well as other areas previously disrupted by filibusters, and California was a path to obtaining the northern part of that country.
 

WJC

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#10
The Confederates wanted Southern California, but in what capacity just to yield the state for it's resources during the war and give it back to the USA in the peace negotiations or did they want the southern half of it after the war and make it a state
Very unlikely that once they had SoCal they would want to give it back. Keeping it, along with modern-day Arizona and New Mexico, would have helped satisfy the Southern appetite for Manifest Destiny and provided them ports on the Pacific.
 
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#11
I am not sure this view is correct. Major Teel, who was on Sibley's Staff in New Mexico, stated "The objective aim and design of the campaign was the conquest of California." and that “"On to San Francisco” would be the watchword" in the article he wrote after the war that is in Battle and Leaders.

Teel, though he did not personally meet with Jefferson Davis, believes Davis was fully on board with Sibley's objectives.
Which of course leads to the next question how is one Confederate regiment supposed to occupy the present day states of New Mexico and Arizona plus Cali up to San Francisco? That's asking a bit much from one regiment. Maybe @James Lutzweiler has the magical answer.
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#12
The Confederate Congress declared war on the United States on May 6, 1861. However, it specifically excluded a declaration of war against states and territories that it claimed to be part of the southern confederacy (outside of Tennessee and North Carolina which had not yet seceded.) These included the territories of Arizona, New Mexico, and so-called Indian Territory. This would appear to provide the confederacy with legal justification for carrying out military operations in those areas. But as seen in the Confederate Constitution (below)
the Confederacy did not make any claim on California or any parts thereof.

"war exists between the Confederate States and the Government of the United States and the States and Territories thereof, except the States of Maryland, North Carolina, Tennessee, Kentucky, Arkansas, Missouri, and Delaware, and the Territories of Arizona and New Mexico, and the Indian Territory south of Kansas:"
On the other hand the Confederacy did make an attempt to seize the American Southwest even though the plan consisted of magical thinking.
Leftyhunter
 
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#13
The Colorado Territory was Southern California. Winfield Scott recalled A S Johnston from his Pacific command because he thought Johnston might know of secessionists (which he did) and sympathize with them. Along with the Californios and Confederate sympathizers, there was a lot of secessionist sentiment and the Pico Act of 1859 had separated the state into North and South. However, the simple admission of California to the Union as a free-soil state upset the balance in the Senate and hastened the South's departure. There was also a movement for the Republic of the Pacific, which would in effect, make an independent nation of the entire West Coast.

Southern interest in Alta California preceded the war - Davis as Secretary of State had an ambitious plan to connect SoCal with the South through railroads. The ports of Los Angeles, Long Beach and San Diego would benefit Southern commerce a great deal. It would be about 40 or 50 years (1905 I believe) before Mulholland was able to begin the LA Aquaduct project, which made Los Angeles a very rich city indeed - but Davis was thinking of this, too. The Confederacy also had an eye on Mexico, as well as other areas previously disrupted by filibusters, and California was a path to obtaining the northern part of that country.
While the Confederacy had large ambitions they just lacked the numbers of armed men in California or the Southwest for that matter to bring about Confederate rule. Eighty six men of the Los Angeles Mounted Rifles did accompany General Sydney Johnston to Texas but that's not enough men to make a difference.
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diane

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#14
While the Confederacy had large ambitions they just lacked the numbers of armed men in California or the Southwest for that matter to bring about Confederate rule. Eighty six men of the Los Angeles Mounted Rifles did accompany General Sydney Johnston to Texas but that's not enough men to make a difference.
Leftyhunter
There were many, many more in the militias and enough in San Bernardino to warrant a Union garrison to keep SoCal from seceding. There were also Union soldiers deployed to some of the mining camps around Sacamento as well as in the vicinity of Sonoma. San Francisco even used the dilapidated old cannon from Yerba Buena (which hadn't been used since the Spanish left) to protect the bay from the Confederate navy - there was a little kerfluffle in the Port of Oakland when Confederate sympathizers tried to pirate a ship out of the Golden Gate and use it to waylay a shipment of gold. Most of the Confederate sympathizers were not so much interested in fighting for the CSA back east - they were interested in winning California in the west.
 

ErnieMac

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#15
Very unlikely that once they had SoCal they would want to give it back. Keeping it, along with modern-day Arizona and New Mexico, would have helped satisfy the Southern appetite for Manifest Destiny and provided them ports on the Pacific.
Along with southern New Mexico and Arizona came the future route of the Southern Pacific Railroad.
 
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#16
There were many, many more in the militias and enough in San Bernardino to warrant a Union garrison to keep SoCal from seceding. There were also Union soldiers deployed to some of the mining camps around Sacamento as well as in the vicinity of Sonoma. San Francisco even used the dilapidated old cannon from Yerba Buena (which hadn't been used since the Spanish left) to protect the bay from the Confederate navy - there was a little kerfluffle in the Port of Oakland when Confederate sympathizers tried to pirate a ship out of the Golden Gate and use it to waylay a shipment of gold. Most of the Confederate sympathizers were not so much interested in fighting for the CSA back east - they were interested in winning California in the west.
There were Confederate sympathizers but nothing compared to states such has Missouri and Kentucky that had active Confederate guerrillas. It certainly doesn't appear the Confederacy had any serious ambitions to actually size the Southwest other then a grossly inadequate regiment that was defeated at Glorieta Pass.
Leftyhunter
 

AshleyMel

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#17
Well, there was also Camp Babbitt!

From the site:
"Secessionists were so active in 1862, "It is an everyday occurrence for them to ride through the streets of Visalia and hurrah for Jeff Davis and Stonewall Jackson, and often give groans for the Stars and Stripes," reported Camp Babbitt's first commander, Lieutenant Colonel George S. Evans."


"Secession had been rife in this Joaquin Valley region as early as the 1850's when the citizens threatened to form their own republic if not granted a railroad line. In 1860, editors of the rival Union and rebel newspapers met for a duel, but tempers were so short that what was to be a shooting match ended with principals and seconds trading punches. The editors themselves faced down each other in one of the newspaper offices a few days later. The secessionist editor took a fatal bullet in his stomach. The Union man decided his popularity had waned so much he had better leave town."

http://militarymuseum.org/CpBabbitt.html
 

Eric Calistri

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#18
Which of course leads to the next question how is one Confederate regiment supposed to occupy the present day states of New Mexico and Arizona plus Cali up to San Francisco? That's asking a bit much from one regiment. Maybe @James Lutzweiler has the magical answer.
Leftyhunter
I"ll quote more fully from Teel:

"His campaign was to be self-sustaining; President Davis knew that Colonel John R. Baylor, with less than five hundred troops, had captured large supplies and was in possession of all of Arizona and the lower part of New Mexico; Sibley was to utilize the results of Baylor's successes, make Mesilla the base of operations, and with the enlistment of men from New Mexico, California, Arizona, and Colorado form an army which would effect the ultimate aim of the campaign, for there were scattered all over the Western States and Territories Southern men who were anxiously awaiting an opportunity to join the Confederate army. Upon the arrival of his brigade at Mesilla, Sibley was to open negotiations with the governors of Chihuahua, Sonora, and Lower California, for supplies, etc. The objective aim and design of the campaign was the conquest of California, and as soon as the Confederate army should occupy the Territory of New Mexico, an army of advance would be organized, and “On to San Francisco” would be the watchword ..."

In hindsight, this was "pie in the sky". But look at it from the fall of 1861 when Sibley and Davis were planning it out. The Sibley Brigade was 4 regiments, and if the CSA was as popular in the Southwest as Davis, Sibley et al had assumed, the force would have eventually been much larger. Now remember the experience of Davis and Sibley would have been the Mormon Campaign of barely 4 years earlier where about 2,000 men had marched to Utah, and not Shiloh or the 7 days etc, which were all still in the future. That the effective strength of Sibleys Brigade at Glorietta had dropped to 1,100 from the 2,600 that he had at Valverde a month earlier was mostly due to mistakes Sibley made in New Mexico.

Teel again:

"General Sibley was not a good administrative officer. He did not husband his resources, and was too prone to let the morrow take care of itself. But for this the expedition never would have been undertaken, nor would he have left the enemy between him and his base of supplies, a mistake which he made at Fort Craig, The other reasons for the failure of the campaign were want of supplies, ammunition, discipline, and confidence. "
 

diane

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#19
There were Confederate sympathizers but nothing compared to states such has Missouri and Kentucky that had active Confederate guerrillas. It certainly doesn't appear the Confederacy had any serious ambitions to actually size the Southwest other then a grossly inadequate regiment that was defeated at Glorieta Pass.
Leftyhunter
The key word there, Lefty, is 'active'. No Bloody Bills here, but plenty enough sympathizers from both sides to pose problems. Distance is the factor. Missouri and Kentucky were close to the fighting war, and had units officially in it on both sides. The situation in California was to prevent disturbances from becoming a fighting war. The Confederacy did not have enough forces to make a conquest in the west - they didn't even have enough to keep Sherman out of their back yard! In California was another, wholly unique to California, factor - the Mexicans and Californios who wanted to undo what was done with the Mexican War.
 
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#20
Well, there was also Camp Babbitt!

From the site:
"Secessionists were so active in 1862, "It is an everyday occurrence for them to ride through the streets of Visalia and hurrah for Jeff Davis and Stonewall Jackson, and often give groans for the Stars and Stripes," reported Camp Babbitt's first commander, Lieutenant Colonel George S. Evans."


"Secession had been rife in this Joaquin Valley region as early as the 1850's when the citizens threatened to form their own republic if not granted a railroad line. In 1860, editors of the rival Union and rebel newspapers met for a duel, but tempers were so short that what was to be a shooting match ended with principals and seconds trading punches. The editors themselves faced down each other in one of the newspaper offices a few days later. The secessionist editor took a fatal bullet in his stomach. The Union man decided his popularity had waned so much he had better leave town."

http://militarymuseum.org/CpBabbitt.html
That's interesting but there Just wasn't a serious attempt by the Confederacy to seize California. One regiment and some half hearted sympathizers is not a viable plan to seize and hold California.
Leftyhunter
 



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