Did Lee "choke up" after major victories?

millerpsc

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I am doing some reading about 2nd manassas and chantilly and was wondering if Lee tended to choke up after major victories? I understand that after 2nd manassas the ANV was disorganized in there victory but IMHO lee was never closer to victory then he was at 2nd manassas. So why didnt he press harder at chantilly? The same could be said for Fredericksburg. I'm starting to think that Lee became cautious after victory because he didnt want to nullify the effects of those victories. Any input on the subject would be appreciated. Thanks
 
Lee lost the chance to "bag" Pope's army once they got back beyond the creek and in a strong position. Jackson waited several hours before he moved to support Longstreet's assault. Pope was moving into the defenses of DC thus allowing Lee access to move north. Lee took the opportunity to move the fight out of Va.
 
I think Chantilly shows exactly the opposite. A lot of generals would have been content to rest on their laurels after defeating a stronger army and forcing it to retreat. Lee went for the total victory, splitting his smaller force and trying to bag Pope's entire army.
 
I don't think he choked up so much as paused to reorganize his forces. There's a military maxim that the only thing that disorganizes a military force more than a hard fought victory is a defeat. Even in victory, after a big fight your forces are tired, hungry, low on ammo, sometimes intermingled with other units, key field and company-level leaders are dead, communications become problematic, and so on.

This brings up Clausewitz' idea of the "culminating point":
On the offensive, the culminating point marks the time when the attacking force can no longer continue its advance, because of supply problems, the opposing force, or the need for rest. The task of the attacker is to complete its objectives before the culminating point is reached. The task of the defender on the other hand, is to bring the attacking force to its culminating point before its objectives are completed. (Wikipedia)​
A good military leader will know when his attack is reaching its culminating point and not go beyond, or else risk his forces being defeated in a counterattack. Lee was quick to take advantage of his opponents' weaknesses and willing to take well-considered risks, but normally knew when not to ask too much of his forces based on their current condition versus that of the enemy.
 
Clausewitz, I believe, has some things to say about the terrible inertia that afflicts leaders and their armies in battle.
 
Clausewitz, I believe, has some things to say about the terrible inertia that afflicts leaders and their armies in battle.

AND the "fog of war." You never have a perfectly clear picture of what your opponent is doing, nor necessarily what your own forces are actually doing vice what they've been ordered to do. Sometimes, that picture is murky 0r down right opaque. Decisions are made on bad intelligence, half-truths, poor analysis, unlucky guesswork etc. And after a big battle, the fog of war can be very thick.

Take Bragg, for instance, at Stones River/Murfreesboro. After he folded back the Union right on 31DEC1862, he thought Rosecrans would retire from the field. Bragg heard wagons going up the pike towards Nashville all night and figured it was a retreat; instead, it was the wounded being sent north. Lo and behold, on the morning of 01JAN1863, the Union forces were still in place. He had already sent a telegram to Davis implying he had won a victory. Now, after his defeated attack on 02JAN and subsequent withdrawal south, he looked a bit foolish.

Conversely, look at Bragg after Chickamauga. On the 20th, his forces drove the Union right off the field and came close to overrunning the left (under Thomas) at Snodgrass Hill. That, evening, Thomas pulled the remaining Union forces off the field and went north into Chattanooga. Bragg, however, was under the impression that Union forces were still at his front and took some time to be convinced that he had taken the field.

I think you might be able to make the argument that Bragg "choked" after Chickamauga. I don't think the same could be said of Lee in any of his victories.
 
Never.What one of his problems was,he never had avaliable,unused troops to throw into a victory and seal the deal.
 
Lee's plan was to give Jackson's men a little rest before he sent them on yet another march similar to the one before. Jackson would march around Pope's flank to cut off his retreat towards Washington, with Longstreet following after burying the dead. Pope had been ordered by Halleck not to retreat towards Washington but to return and attack Lee at Manassas. Pope was in the process of doing that when reports came in that heavy columns of infantry were approaching his flank. He then decided to retreat to Washington but not before stalling Jackon's advance at Chantilly/Ox Hill in what proved to be an inconclusive battle. Longstreet arrived the next morning but by then Pope's retreat was well under way.
 
OK I get it. It's hard to get over the ability to look back in 20/20 hindsight... i can look at 2nd manassas and see it was Lee's best chance of total victory but to him he probably thought that with a mostly defeated enemy he could manuever in a way to finish the fight, only to end at Antietam.
 
Lee was one of history's most aggressive generals and was ever eager to deal a death blow to the opposing army. As mentioned before, he didn't have extra men when he sure could have used them. That's why Hill's timely arrival at Antietam saved his boss's bacon. (But, if he hadn't made it McClellan would have probably saved it for him!) There were a number of times when Lee could have done what he wanted but something or other just didn't go in his favor. Jackson would have had a simple explanation - someone asked him why he thought Napoleon lost Waterloo. "God stopped him right there!" replied Jackson firmly.
 
I am doing some reading about 2nd manassas and chantilly and was wondering if Lee tended to choke up after major victories? I understand that after 2nd manassas the ANV was disorganized in there victory but IMHO lee was never closer to victory then he was at 2nd manassas. So why didnt he press harder at chantilly? The same could be said for Fredericksburg. I'm starting to think that Lee became cautious after victory because he didnt want to nullify the effects of those victories. Any input on the subject would be appreciated. Thanks

All of the above. 2nd Manassas was fought--when? If you do hard marching with your troops to get to a massive battle and then have that fight, what do you have left? There was no "choke" with Lee (although I'll go for Bragg and Mac)....just running out of what he needed most--fighting men and men who could lead them.
 
Having read some quartermaster accounts, the logistics of continuing the battle was always a challenge. Some of Lincoln's 'would you move' was not possible due to no feed for man or beast. No ammo, etc. Sure Lee faced the same thing and more as the war went on.

Step back and think what is took to cloth and feed the soldier, let alone the horses, mules, etc. From shoe laces, socks, shoes, belts, pants, shirts, hats, then ammo in multiple sizes, cannon shot in multiple sizes, and the ability to transport those items to where the men were. Then to also feed those doing the transporting. Took a lot of oats and hay and other foodstuffs.
 
I know Jackson was completely out of ammo, but longstreet was in fairly good condition to continue the fight. It would sorta be like Patton in france and belgium, Patton pushed until he ran out of fuel. If Lee could have pushed Kearny and Stevens out of Chantilly then Lee would have had Pope pushed into the defenses of washington, which might have been the key to move England to recognize the Confederacy. Longshot but better than Gettysburg lol
 
I think pushing the Union army back was precisely Lee's and the Confederacy's frustration. After every victory the AofP retreated in good order, ready to try again in a couple of months - unlikely to persuade the north, the British, or anyone else that the Confederacy was winning the war, particularly in view of contemporaneous events in the west. I think Lee recognized that he needed a truly crushing victory.

The Second Manassas campaign was an excellent opportunity. Federal forces in the Virginia theater were divided. Although the AofP was starting to redeploy, most of it was still in the Peninsula. While the main armies of both sides were fighting around Richmond, the Union had taken advantage of the opportunity to advance a major force into northern Virginia - a force which became a worthwhile target once Lee had beaten back the immediate threat. Using the South's advantages of interior lines and operating in friendly territory, Lee could concentrate against Pope and hopefully destroy a significant element of Union military power.
 
One thing tho, as Kearney and Reno(?) are moving on Jack's flank at Ox Hill, Jacks forward elements are running into Hooker and Sumner who are drawn up in line of battle a short distance down the road. Instead of pushing East and North Lee has to turn to the North West. The area to move in this country is very constrictive and another turning of the flank would bring Lee up against the beginnings of the forts and trenches in the area to secure Alexandria etc. Much is said of following up a victory, why no one does it etc. Here is an example and here is the result.
 
I know Jackson was completely out of ammo, but longstreet was in fairly good condition to continue the fight. It would sorta be like Patton in france and belgium, Patton pushed until he ran out of fuel. If Lee could have pushed Kearny and Stevens out of Chantilly then Lee would have had Pope pushed into the defenses of washington, which might have been the key to move England to recognize the Confederacy. Longshot but better than Gettysburg lol

Those are called tanks. Tanks, unlike horses, mules and infantry, run on fuel you pour into a tank. They're machines. Lee didn't have them, although I'm sure he would gladly have taken some.
 
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