Devil's Den's defense

First, I am going to assume that you meant that the 40th NY moved by the left oblique down the valley? Second, how do we reconcile Smith's report that the rear section was 75 or 100 yards beyond the crest of Houck's ridge? The position of today's guns on the field are more like 300 yards from the crest. Third, any ideas as to what that right flank marker represents?

Yes, I should have said left oblique, the regiment would likely be left in front as it passed through the Wheatfield. I can't reconcile Smith's report except to point out that he was principally occupied attending to his forward guns and not his rear section.
 
Yes, I should have said left oblique, the regiment would likely be left in front as it passed through the Wheatfield. I can't reconcile Smith's report except to point out that he was principally occupied attending to his forward guns and not his rear section.

IIRC, Smith didn't return to that section until after the collapse of the Union line on Houck's Ridge. I'd chalk up his account to misremembering how far back that section was because I think it's relatively clear where that section was deployed.

Ryan
 
I am still lost as to why the right flank marker was placed at its current location. It seems to be in the middle of nowhere and it's difficult to find!
 
@infomanpa and @Tom Elmore , I can't thank you enough for your excellent posts. This is good stuff. Tom, your electronic library has to be enourmous for you to make your posts so quickly and so concisely.

So, let me try to wrap this up. Regimental history seems to place Smith's 4 forward guns further east but still close to where they stand today. East would push the 4 guns more or less directly behind where the guns sit today. Now let's go back and interject Hunt's conversation with Smith 25 years after the battle. Hunt talks about painting a rock and placing their monument a few feet north. Below is a google satellite view of Smith's guns current position. Now based on that conversation, I have assumed that the rock that Hunt was referring to Hunt Rock A below. Another option is the oblong rock marked Hunt rock 2.

Does Hunt's conversation with Smith add any credible clues on the guns location or did the 25 years of elapsed time cloud their memory? As you venture north of that location, the largest rocks are just in front of the 99th Pa monument. But there are few others. Lastly, are the 2 locations I id'd below, far enough away from the current position to motivate Hunt to interject the incompetency comment?

I don't recall reading that Smith's monument was ever moved. I remember it being vandalized, but not moved. Thanks all.
View attachment 338898
Recently did a field check and have come to the conclusion that the rock that Hunt and Smith stood was "Hunt Rock 1," as illustrated in your picture, Wally.

My first image is me standing directly on the rock.
20200113_143154.jpg


Now, let's move a "few feet to the north" as we know, would have been the left flank of Smith's guns. The following image is me standing at that location. Notice the great field of fire.
20200113_144439.jpg

This means that the guns were probably located near the blue and green lines on Wally's map. That makes sense because I couldn't find a better position for those 4 guns. Nice work!
 
At the 1887 reunion of the 124th New York, Captain J. E. Smith spoke these words: "When the battle began the 124th N.Y. and 4th Me. and 4th N.Y. independent battery were posted on the left. Of the battery, four guns were ranged along the ridge, with left piece resting near a large boulder just over the "Devil's Den." These guns covered the valley west, to and beyond the Emmitsburg road, and two guns were posted on lower ground 75 yards in rear to guard the pass of Plum Run Gorge. The 124th N.Y. lay on their arms 10 yards in rear of the guns on the ridge, while the 4th Me. occupied ground more to the left." (The National Tribune, September 29, 1887, p.6)
 
Here is the location of Union monuments at Devil's Den with lines drawn to indicate their flank markers. The regiments belonging to Ward's brigade are indicated in green. In black notation are the location of the monuments to Smith's 4th NY Battery, also showing flank markers. Smith had 4 guns right above the "den," but located 2 more in the rear because they could not be accommodated with the others.
View attachment 338777
Notice the significant difference between the location of the guns on today's battlefield versus what many now believe were the actual position of the guns (in red). Any thoughts on this? Evidently, it has been controversial for some time. The story of Devil's Den has particularly fascinated me. The most detailed information that I have found comes from Garry Adelman and Timothy Smith's excellent book.
In the official report of the 6th NJ, Lt. Col Gilkyson refers to the section of Smith's battery that was left near Plum Run to be on his left. It has long been my view when walking the terrain in that area that this section was probably east of where the roadway is today, rather than the location of the two guns on the field. If one looks carefully (and I will admit that the topography may have been disturbed by the construction of the road) there is almost a perfect platform where a two gun section would command the Valley of Death. Accordingly, I have some doubts as to the position shown by the red line on your map for the rear section. I would place it further to the east.
It strikes me that the only thing we can be sure of about the placement of the 4 guns on Houck's Ridge is that they were not where the battery's monument is today.
It is also important to bear in mind that the monuments and flank markers on the field today are static. The combat that took place here and elsewhere at Gettysburg was dynamic.
 
In the official report of the 6th NJ, Lt. Col Gilkyson refers to the section of Smith's battery that was left near Plum Run to be on his left. It has long been my view when walking the terrain in that area that this section was probably east of where the roadway is today, rather than the location of the two guns on the field. If one looks carefully (and I will admit that the topography may have been disturbed by the construction of the road) there is almost a perfect platform where a two gun section would command the Valley of Death. Accordingly, I have some doubts as to the position shown by the red line on your map for the rear section. I would place it further to the east.
It strikes me that the only thing we can be sure of about the placement of the 4 guns on Houck's Ridge is that they were not where the battery's monument is today.
It is also important to bear in mind that the monuments and flank markers on the field today are static. The combat that took place here and elsewhere at Gettysburg was dynamic.

Do you believe that the rear section was west or east of Plum Run? I will have to check that out in a future visit. I would think it would be problematic to be in the lowest ground so close to the stream among the rocks. It's also possible the the 6th NJ was more west than where its monument and flank markers are located. As you said, the regiment's location would have been dynamic. That may account for them stating that the guns were to their left. The other possibility is that their report is in error.
 
I think the "rear section" of Smith's battery was east of Plum Run, but west of where the modern road is today. If you look east and a bit south of where their marker is on the field you will see the slight plateau. it just looks to be like a good gun platform, but even two guns would be a tight fit. It would have kept them out of the mud, and given a great shot down the valley.

Also, as I am willing to admit, the topography may well have changed, in which case my theory goes up in cannon smoke.
 
As for the 6th New Jersey, Lt. Benjamin D. Cooley of Company K/I wrote the regiment moved "at left oblique through the point of woods to an open space, and over another fence, down in the hollow where the large boulders are. Then we engaged the Rebs again, diagonally across Plum run ..." (Final Report of the Gettysburg Battle-Field Commission of New Jersey, Trenton, 1891, p. 103). Their monument is in fact near a group of boulders that seem ideally positioned to offer cover to the regiment. Plus I think moving even a bit to the west would have placed the 6th behind rising ground.

The 40th New York probably followed a similar path from the Wheatfield through the "point of woods" into the open ground beyond (Bachelder Papers, 3:1980). Captain Smith of the 4th New York wrote that the 40th New York charged through his battery (which has to be the detached section) (New York at Gettysburg, I:294), and Bachelder says the 40th New York first took a position in front of those two guns. The ground adjacent to Plum Run was likely (and still is) soft and marshy (as I recall the Pennsylvania Reserves noted in their later charge). I can't imagine Smith's section crossing to the east side of the run without getting bogged down in the mire, or the 40th New York moving at right angles (moving east to cross the run before moving south) to pass through that section.

Here's my draft map:
 

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I think the "rear section" of Smith's battery was east of Plum Run, but west of where the modern road is today. If you look east and a bit south of where their marker is on the field you will see the slight plateau. it just looks to be like a good gun platform, but even two guns would be a tight fit. It would have kept them out of the mud, and given a great shot down the valley.

Also, as I am willing to admit, the topography may well have changed, in which case my theory goes up in cannon smoke.

I'm having a problem with the description. It's not possible to be located "east of Plum Run, but west of where the modern road is today." From the rest of your description, may I assume that your directions are reversed and you meant, "west of Plum Run, but east of where the modern road is today?" If so, this makes sense.
 
As for the 6th New Jersey, Lt. Benjamin D. Cooley of Company K/I wrote the regiment moved "at left oblique through the point of woods to an open space, and over another fence, down in the hollow where the large boulders are. Then we engaged the Rebs again, diagonally across Plum run ..." (Final Report of the Gettysburg Battle-Field Commission of New Jersey, Trenton, 1891, p. 103). Their monument is in fact near a group of boulders that seem ideally positioned to offer cover to the regiment. Plus I think moving even a bit to the west would have placed the 6th behind rising ground.

The 40th New York probably followed a similar path from the Wheatfield through the "point of woods" into the open ground beyond (Bachelder Papers, 3:1980). Captain Smith of the 4th New York wrote that the 40th New York charged through his battery (which has to be the detached section) (New York at Gettysburg, I:294), and Bachelder says the 40th New York first took a position in front of those two guns. The ground adjacent to Plum Run was likely (and still is) soft and marshy (as I recall the Pennsylvania Reserves noted in their later charge). I can't imagine Smith's section crossing to the east side of the run without getting bogged down in the mire, or the 40th New York moving at right angles (moving east to cross the run before moving south) to pass through that section.

Here's my draft map:

I think that everyone agrees that the guns were west of Plum Run.
 
My draft map does not show the "point of woods," but perhaps extending an imaginary line eastward from the stone wall behind which the 17th Maine was posted would establish that "point of woods." Phil's map has Smith's section somewhat further north than mine, making it difficult to see how the 40th New York could pass through that section on its way south. Rather, in coming under fire upon reaching open ground, the safest course would be for the 40th to initially move at the right oblique, which I took into consideration in positioning Smith's section on my map, and in this instance I believe it closely accords with the actual placement of those guns on the field.
 
My draft map does not show the "point of woods," but perhaps extending an imaginary line eastward from the stone wall behind which the 17th Maine was posted would establish that "point of woods." Phil's map has Smith's section somewhat further north than mine, making it difficult to see how the 40th New York could pass through that section on its way south. Rather, in coming under fire upon reaching open ground, the safest course would be for the 40th to initially move at the right oblique, which I took into consideration in positioning Smith's section on my map, and in this instance I believe it closely accords with the actual placement of those guns on the field.

Laino's map just previous to the one that I posted has the 40th New York following the 6th New Jersey through the "point of woods" and deploying to the front of Smith's section rather than passing through it.

Ryan
 
So here a true story. When I played high school football, my coach wrote "L" and "R" one the left and right pant legs of my practice pants because I kept getting my right and left criss-crossed and going the wrong way on certain plays. It seems I have the same problem with east and west. The directions I put in my last post were exactly opposite of what I intended. I'm glad to have you guys making this badly needed correction.

I fully agree that Smith's detached section was west of Plum Run, but I think it was east of where the road is today. I agree Tom that it was likely located just a bit south of where Laino has it.
 
So here a true story. When I played high school football, my coach wrote "L" and "R" one the left and right pant legs of my practice pants because I kept getting my right and left criss-crossed and going the wrong way on certain plays. It seems I have the same problem with east and west. The directions I put in my last post were exactly opposite of what I intended. I'm glad to have you guys making this badly needed correction.

I fully agree that Smith's detached section was west of Plum Run, but I think it was east of where the road is today. I agree Tom that it was likely located just a bit south of where Laino has it.

Interesting story. Being a teacher, I have had students like you. Just be thankful that you weren't a soldier. You could have been shot when hearing, "Right Flank March!" 😁
 
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