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Debunking a Myth: The Irish Were Not Slaves, Too

Discussion in 'Civil War History - General Discussion' started by kepi, Mar 17, 2017.

  1. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    Modern Irish Americans are rarely descended from people who came over before the 1790s. America was a difficult place for an Irish Catholic before the Constitution. We know they were accused of being behind the NY slave arsons and that at least one was killed as a witch during the colonial era.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  3. Drew

    Drew Captain

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    No, Cromwell simply killed them, about 25% of Ireland's population. There really wasn't any need for slavery.
     
  4. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    If some one has to work for someone else for free the rest of their life then they are slaves. If they work for seven years and get trained in a vocation or their journey to America us paid for plus room and board then they are indentured servants.
    @Pat Young if my definition between slave vs indentured servant is in adequate then please state your definition of slave vs indentured servant.
    Leftyhunter
     
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  5. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    Then the slaves were not indentured servants to begin with. An indentured servant starts of as a free person and knows for seven years they won't be frew but after seven years they will be free.
    Gradual emancipation as nothing to do with being an indentured servant.
    Leftyhunter
     
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  6. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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  7. Drew

    Drew Captain

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    I haven't tried to and am not really interested in debating it. Mr. SquirrelHudson asked a question and I answered it. You all carry on.
     
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  8. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    Again, my question is, if slavery involves having "to work for someone else for free the rest of their life" then how do we classify those blacks in the North who were slaves at the time gradual emancipation laws were passed? Were they still slaves even though they knew they would be free soon?
     
  9. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    The slaves were never indentured servants to begin with. They are slaves that will be gradually set free. They are still slaves until granted manumision (sp?)papers.
    Leftyhunter
     
  10. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    On the question of who is a slave, I think we have to address some of the misconceptions about what is necessary for a person to be considered a slave. Over the past few years, I have heard several factors raised to differentiate slaves from indentured servants. Here are a few, along with my commentary:

    1. "Slavery is lifelong." Response: there were blacks in the North who were slaves at the time gradual emancipation laws were passed and who were still considered slaves during the period between passage of the laws and the dates of emancipation.
    2. "Slaves could not bring lawsuits." Response: There were more than 100 lawsuits brought by enslaved blacks in Missouri alone seeking freedom.
    3. "Slavery was based on race." Response: There are many instances of people of the same skin color enslaving one another.
    4. "Indentured servants entered into contracts voluntaily." Response: As has been pointed out in some of the links, a number of these indentured servants were compelled into that status because they were political prisoners.
     
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  11. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  12. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    You said that a slave "to work for someone else for free the rest of their life". I asked if you though the slave ceased to be a slave once the date of freedom was known. So you are now saying that this permanence of slave status is not necessary to be a slave.
     
  13. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    It seems absurd to use alleged Irish slavery as an argument against reparations for the descendants of slaves. Obviously reparations, if they were given, would not be from the white to the black race. They would be from the United States government to descendants of slaves. United States responsibility would not be from the time slavery was introduced in the English colonies, but only from the beginnings of the American government, let's say 1789. The payments would be for American laws protecting slavery and would be paid for out of taxes. The taxes would be paid for by white, black, Latino, and Asian American, descendants of slaveowners and descendants of abolitionists. Modern immigrants, with no ties in this country back to the 1860s would pay as well. The reparations would be for the US government's role in slavery, not for what any particular ancestor did or did not do.

    If the was Irish slavery existed in the English seaboard colonies (and I don't believe that it did), it was extinguished before the United States came into being. Therefore there would be no justification for reparations by the United States.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  14. Copperhead-mi

    Copperhead-mi 1st Lieutenant Trivia Game Winner

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    Supposedly the 13th President, Millard Fillmore, was as a young boy, indentured by his father to a cloth mill owner.
     
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  15. MattL

    MattL Sergeant

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    A lot of the problem is just terminology, I think we need a consistent and expanded vocabulary on the subject.

    I suspect everyone posting here clearly knows that African race based chattel slavery was very different than indentured servants or other forms of forced servitude that may have involved Colonial era groups. The problem is much (maybe most) people don't fully understand that and when they see a term like "slave" applied to two different groups they may be convinced it means the same thing.
     
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  16. Dedej

    Dedej Private

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    I totally agree. Honestly, the reparations conversation is something I don't like to go into - because it can bring out a lot of mean, insensitive comments by many.

    IMO, certain African countries who actively participated and admitted that they did --- should be held accountable for their part as well. But, most descendants/tribes -- like many descendants in USA -- slavery is something that happened a long time ago - and they have to ties/connection to what happened and what their ancestors did. So, I don't think reparations will ever happen. Believe it or not, It's actually not a conversation that is talked about a lot in the Black community. As, most know it most likely won't happen.

    Those Irish who have claim "they want their reparations too" are just being mean and bored. :smile:

     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
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  17. leftyhunter

    leftyhunter Captain

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    No an indentured servant is not born into servitude and only has to endure working for free for a specified period of time usually for seven years and their children while being indentured can not be sold.
    Gradual emancipation means their children can be sold unless the legal statute says otherwise.
    Leftyhunter
     
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  18. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    Not all slaves were born into servitude.
     
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  19. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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    In New York, the 1799 law said that the children born after July 4, 1799 to slaves were not themselves slaves. If your children are not born as slaves and you are set to be freed in 1827, does that make you a slave?
     
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  20. Pat Young

    Pat Young Colonel Forum Host

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  21. Youngblood

    Youngblood Corporal

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    I dont know who wrote this but i googled "Irish slavery 1600's" and this is the first one i got. Ive seen this basic idea before. Just skim the first couple paragraphs if you dont want to get into it.
    http://www.ewtn.com/library/humanity/slaves.txt
     

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