CWT Black Confederates with the rank of Private

jgoodguy

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#1
Spreadsheet
CWT Black Confederates with the rank of Private
This is a more restricted spreadsheet that only included entries with the rank of private.

I'll be working on cleaning this up and adding ones that did not get included. I am hoping to end up with a list of 'true' privates which exclude cooks and obvious noncombatants. I am not sure of the next step. Be aware of the limitations of the evidence. Asking for evidence that does not exist is a bit futile.

If you want to refer to an individual please include the row number.
 

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#3

19thGeorgia

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#4
Spreadsheet
CWT Black Confederates with the rank of Private
This is a more restricted spreadsheet that only included entries with the rank of private.

I'll be working on cleaning this up and adding ones that did not get included. I am hoping to end up with a list of 'true' privates which exclude cooks and obvious noncombatants. I am not sure of the next step. Be aware of the limitations of the evidence. Asking for evidence that does not exist is a bit futile.

If you want to refer to an individual please include the row number.
There were four black cooks in a certain company of a certain regiment (this regiment saw its heaviest fighting in July and August of 1863). The four cooks were in service a long time - about three years. They were listed as cook on every roll except one - July and August of 1863. On that roll they were listed as private.
 

jgoodguy

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#5
There were four black cooks in a certain company of a certain regiment (this regiment saw its heaviest fighting in July and August of 1863). The four cooks were in service a long time - about three years. They were listed as cook on every roll except one - July and August of 1863. On that roll they were listed as private.
Thanks! A good example of the messiness of the evidence. Folks want photographic evidence and what we have is akin to sign(as in hunting deer in the forest by looking for rubs, scat, trails etc) on a forest floor.

For now, I am inclined to one cook and you're out.
 

AshleyMel

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#6
Your spreadsheet, your rules Mr. joodguy! :nerd:

I must say though, I am thankful for the "rubs, scat and trails" that are available for us to follow to tell a bit of these men's stories. It is personally frustrating to see such evidence, no matter how slight, diminished or reduced to constantly evolving standards of proof. If there was only even one, who fit the bill, I would hope his part in history would not be remembered any less. It can be all too easy to deprived these men and their stories of oxygen in hopes to extinguish their flames, I have been starved quite a bit myself over the years. I am happy, there are some, in their kindness, that are a least willing to gently blow on the spark to see what catches. Let's look forward to seeing what grows!
 

unionblue

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#7
Your spreadsheet, your rules Mr. joodguy! :nerd:

I must say though, I am thankful for the "rubs, scat and trails" that are available for us to follow to tell a bit of these men's stories. It is personally frustrating to see such evidence, no matter how slight, diminished or reduced to constantly evolving standards of proof. If there was only even one, who fit the bill, I would hope his part in history would not be remembered any less. It can be all too easy to deprived these men and their stories of oxygen in hopes to extinguish their flames, I have been starved quite a bit myself over the years. I am happy, there are some, in their kindness, that are a least willing to gently blow on the spark to see what catches. Let's look forward to seeing what grows!
When gold ore is mined, it is taken through a process that removes the impurities and leaves only refined, pure, gold, a valuable end product valued by all.

I look forward to the process that permits us to view the results of all the hard work of those who dug this information up after such a process, making the information more solid and conclusive.
 

AshleyMel

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#8
When gold ore is mined, it is taken through a process that removes the impurities and leaves only refined, pure, gold, a valuable end product valued by all.

I look forward to the process that permits us to view the results of all the hard work of those who dug this information up after such a process, making the information more solid and conclusive.
I appreciate the comparison! Hubby did a sermon once about diamonds as well! Hopefully any and all of these men who lives are listed in these BC counts will be treated as such, precious and valuable persons of their time and place in history! We should expect no less treatment for any man who is no longer here to speak for themself! No matter the shade of their skin, no matter their station in life. I also hope this endeavor leads to learning more of their lives after the war, I hope their is more of their history to learn. I find it beneficial to just pick a name and start mining from there (as some many have already added to their experiences with the additional military context)! I really hope agendas (if there are any) are checked at the door.
 
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unionblue

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#9
I appreciate the comparison! Hubby did a sermon once about diamonds as well! Hopefully any and all of these men who lives are listed in these BC counts will be treated as such, precious and valuable persons of their time and place in history! We should expect no less treatment for any man who is no longer here to speak for themself! No matter the shade of their skin, not matter their station in life. I also hope this endeavor leads to learning more of their lives after the war, I hope their is more of their history to learn. I find it beneficial to just pick a name and start mining from there (as some many have already added to their experiences with the additional military context)! I really hope agendas (if there are any) are checked at the door.
Where poor, humble, people are involved, agendas may be the only thing of worth they can bring to the debate. :smile:

It is my firm hope that the thread and it's results are treated in a factual, historical manner, giving us information on which to base all of our views on for future discussion and debate.
 

AshleyMel

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#10
Where poor, humble, people are involved, agendas may be the only thing of worth they can bring to the debate. :smile:
Speaking only for myself, as a poor, humble and um...person with my experiences...agendas have never been a good thing!
Even the well meaning ones. :cold:

It is my firm hope that the thread and it's results are treated in a factual, historical manner, giving us information on which to base all of our views on for future discussion and debate.
On this we agree!
 

jgoodguy

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#11
Your spreadsheet, your rules Mr. joodguy! :nerd:

I must say though, I am thankful for the "rubs, scat and trails" that are available for us to follow to tell a bit of these men's stories. It is personally frustrating to see such evidence, no matter how slight, diminished or reduced to constantly evolving standards of proof. If there was only even one, who fit the bill, I would hope his part in history would not be remembered any less. It can be all too easy to deprived these men and their stories of oxygen in hopes to extinguish their flames, I have been starved quite a bit myself over the years. I am happy, there are some, in their kindness, that are a least willing to gently blow on the spark to see what catches. Let's look forward to seeing what grows!
Perhaps a thread that takes individuals and the information we have and have posts about those individuals in a narrative form would be really nice.
 

AshleyMel

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#12
Perhaps a thread that takes individuals and the information we have and have posts about those individuals in a narrative form would be really nice.
Oh yes! One of the super, special, secret projects I have on my forever growing list of super, special, secret projects. I've mentioned my "black lady confederates" that were posted on here! Wonderful stuff there too! Don't scoff, but another reason UDC is so wonderful, lots of great resources (yes, they are scholarly and academic and all that other stuff you fellas love) and there is great support for us to be able to do this research. There are real stories to be told!
 

jgoodguy

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#13
Oh yes! One of the super, special, secret projects I have on my forever growing list of super, special, secret projects. I've mentioned my "black lady confederates" that were posted on here! Wonderful stuff there too! Don't scoff, but another reason UDC is so wonderful, lots of great resources (yes, they are scholarly and academic and all that other stuff you fellas love) and there is great support for us to be able to do this research. There are real stories to be told!
The stories would be interesting for sure.
 
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#15
Of that insignificant microsm of blacks that were Confederate in belief, none of them were legally enlisted as a soldier in the Confederate army because the Confederacy did not allow it.
The CSRs are definite proof that black or mixed-race men were enlisted with the rank of private. Whether they fought or not cannot be determined, but they were legally enlisted in the Confederate army.
 

Joshism

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#18
Charting is an attempt to legitimize this non-topic and give it more legs. Charting of black Confederates is only possible if the meaning of words is ignored, to the extent that being enlisted as a cook or laborer means being a Confederate soldier.
On the contary: if we look more closely at those listed as Privates we may find evidence outside the CSRs that the men in question were less black than they appeared at a quick glance at a couple records and/or had support roles missing from the CSR.
 

jgoodguy

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#19
Scat in this case. I think all the hoopla about black confederates is merely confusion about what words mean. I'll clarify:

- Being Confederate certainly can only mean believing in the Confederacy, not merely being in the geographic and political circumstance of the Confederacy. It's about motivation and choice. This is not hard to understand -- an insignificant microsm of blacks in the South believed in the Confederacy. The Confederacy was bad for all blacks in the south so of course this was the case.

- Of that insignificant microsm of blacks that were Confederate in belief, none of them were legally enlisted as a soldier in the Confederate army because the Confederacy did not allow it.* This is not hard to understand either. Just like everything in a war when so many things were unofficial, no doubt there were some blacks that were enlisted as soldiers regardless. I'm happy those unofficial enlistments held up for later pension applications. (* that enlisting as a soldier means emancipation, the only enlistment policy that would have worked).

- The many more blacks that were "Confederate" merely by geographic and political circumstance, most of them slaves, in the service of the army or not, cannot be called Confederate any more than a white P.O.W. in the Confederacy.

- It's very transparent why black Confederates are wanted so badly. If folks can be convinced there were a lot of them, especially as enlisted soldiers in the Confederate army, that means the Confederacy wasn't about slavery (i.e. "the slaves themselves loved their ole massa enough to fight for their way of life as slaves") but about being unfairly treated by the Yankee nation in business and being invaded and forced by a Yankee Abolition government to share jobs and amalgate races (i.e. the honor of Southern white women was at stake). So let's be honest about what the topic of black Confederates is: Lost Cause tripe.

- The topic of black Confederates was worth one thread at best, and that as an aside. Charting is an attempt to legitimize this non-topic and give it more legs. Charting of black Confederates is only possible if the meaning of words is ignored, to the extent that being enlisted as a cook or laborer means being a Confederate soldier.

- The topic of black Confederates is entertaining. We have that.
This is off topic for this thread, because it does not refer to any of the men in the spreadsheet and you are attempting to make this one more pointless Black Confederate thread. Please deal with tangible evidence or be elsewhere, please.
 
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