CSA Battleships


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Mark F. Jenkins

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#2
This is probably a translation issue... "battleship" in English is usually considered to mean an early-20th century "dreadnought" or its ancestors and followers, or (less frequently) a "ship of the line" (as "line-of-battle ship"). Neither the Confederacy nor the Union produced what could be properly regarded as "battleships", though one might make a case for the New Ironsides and the converted Roanoke (though it would be iffy at best for each). I think you might mean "warship."
 
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#3
This is probably a translation issue... "battleship" in English is usually considered to mean an early-20th century "dreadnought" or its ancestors and followers, or (less frequently) a "ship of the line" (as "line-of-battle ship"). Neither the Confederacy nor the Union produced what could be properly regarded as "battleships", though one might make a case for the New Ironsides and the converted Roanoke (though it would be iffy at best for each). I think you might mean "warship."
Mark, thank you for pointing out my shortcommings. In Russian there are only 2 terms for such shps "ironclad" and "ship of line". Sure I will correct this. Could I call them "ironclads"? And cold I ask you to set boundaries for the ship classes in that video?
There are ALL IRONCLADS but for the CSA ships collected images. 1019 warships. The images are from the 55 second of the video
 
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#4
As Mark F Jenkins says terminology in English can be difficult and naval terminology is no exception.

What makes it worse is that at the point of the Civil War we are looking at a transition between that which was before and that which was to come.

Therefore I will try and be helpful though what I say will be a simplification.

In the earlier parts of the 19th century the wooden hulled war ships (including as I understand it those in Russia) had been graded from 1st to 6th Rate. The top 3 (1st to 3rd) were considered capable as standing in a line of battle (hence ship of the line which was how ships were supposed to fight in those days). Occasionally and incorrectly some of the largest 1st Rates are now called battleships.

This continues right up until the Civil War with the main change to these wooden hulled ships being that in many (though not all) cases they gain steam propulsion.

Then comes the ironclad.

These are not true battleships.

The Warrior (British) is a heavily armored frigate while the Monitor and the Merrimac (Virginia) are (admittedly formidable) coastal defence vessels. These are backed up by sizable and ocean going wooden navy in the north still mostly operating in the previous fashion.

Battleships as Mark Jenkins says is a very late 19th century term.

Hopefully I haven't confused you even more.
 

rebelatsea

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#5
Dear friends, I tried to draw all the CSS battleships. Please have a glance what I managed to do. The first part of the video i dedicated to 42 batlleships I have found and drawn. Unfortunately I am not a specialist in the theme, so I would apprecate so much if you indicate me my shortcommings.
Very well done, even if I do recognise the origin of some of those drawings. You might like to obtain my book "The Southern Iron Navy" shown in an earlier thread here.
 

7thWisconsin

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#6
Ok, I'll admit almost complete ignorance of correct American 19th century naval terminology, but weren't the largest of the US warships of the time called something like sloop rigged frigates, because the guns are all mounted on a single gundeck?
 
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#8
Very well done, even if I do recognise the origin of some of those drawings. You might like to obtain my book "The Southern Iron Navy" shown in an earlier thread here.
Dear rebelatsea I have drawn 1019 (now more) armoured ships laid down from 1858 to 2021. The most part of CSS ironclads were based upon your information, so I would like to tell you thanks a lot. Moreover - I mentioned about you in my very first post at the forum, where I presented myself. Moreover - if you wan't to use any or all 42 drawn by me CSS ironclads - I'll gladly present to you the high resolution drawings without any conditions. What I would like to ask you to help me to find shortcommings of my work - as far as I went through that huge ammount of information first in my life. May be there are more laid down ironclads I missed. May be some data is wrong.
 
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#9
As Mark F Jenkins says terminology in English can be difficult and naval terminology is no exception.

What makes it worse is that at the point of the Civil War we are looking at a transition between that which was before and that which was to come.

Therefore I will try and be helpful though what I say will be a simplification.

In the earlier parts of the 19th century the wooden hulled war ships (including as I understand it those in Russia) had been graded from 1st to 6th Rate. The top 3 (1st to 3rd) were considered capable as standing in a line of battle (hence ship of the line which was how ships were supposed to fight in those days). Occasionally and incorrectly some of the largest 1st Rates are now called battleships.

This continues right up until the Civil War with the main change to these wooden hulled ships being that in many (though not all) cases they gain steam propulsion.

Then comes the ironclad.

These are not true battleships.

The Warrior (British) is a heavily armored frigate while the Monitor and the Merrimac (Virginia) are (admittedly formidable) coastal defence vessels. These are backed up by sizable and ocean going wooden navy in the north still mostly operating in the previous fashion.

Battleships as Mark Jenkins says is a very late 19th century term.

Hopefully I haven't confused you even more.
Dear Hussar Yeomanry, I got your point. In fact I am slightly embarassed now, cause I do not now have the common term that helps me to define the 1019 images I drawn. For IRONCLADS is OK, but what should I do with "battleships". Is not this term a ship constructive definition or is it sooner the ship usage mode? I would like to have a common term defining the Warrior 1859 and the Royal Oak 1914, Galena 1861 and Massachussets 1921
1861bo-galena-Model.png
1921b1-massachussetts.png

Another speaking - heavy (for her time) with thw side armour ship. Does such term exist?
 

rebelatsea

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#10
Dear rebelatsea I have drawn 1019 (now more) armoured ships laid down from 1858 to 2021. The most part of CSS ironclads were based upon your information, so I would like to tell you thanks a lot. Moreover - I mentioned about you in my very first post at the forum, where I presented myself. Moreover - if you wan't to use any or all 42 drawn by me CSS ironclads - I'll gladly present to you the high resolution drawings without any conditions. What I would like to ask you to help me to find shortcommings of my work - as far as I went through that huge ammount of information first in my life. May be there are more laid down ironclads I missed. May be some data is wrong.
 

Carronade

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#11
Ok, I'll admit almost complete ignorance of correct American 19th century naval terminology, but weren't the largest of the US warships of the time called something like sloop rigged frigates, because the guns are all mounted on a single gundeck?
Frigates and sloops were similar, just that frigates were larger, and they were characterized by having most of their armament on a single gun deck. They often had some guns on a raised forecastle, quarterdeck, or full-length spar deck.

Some navies, mainly European, used the term corvette for a ship intermediate in size between sloop and frigate.

Of course nothing was ever simple in the days of sail :wink: In the 1850s navies developed a new type of sloop whose "main armament" (not that that term was used back then) was 2-3 heavy pivot guns on the centerline, with a few lighter guns on the broadside. Most wartime USN sloops like Kearsarge or Housatonic were of this type, as was CSS Alabama.
 

rebelatsea

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#13
Dear Hussar Yeomanry, I got your point. In fact I am slightly embarassed now, cause I do not now have the common term that helps me to define the 1019 images I drawn. For IRONCLADS is OK, but what should I do with "battleships". Is not this term a ship constructive definition or is it sooner the ship usage mode? I would like to have a common term defining the Warrior 1859 and the Royal Oak 1914, Galena 1861 and Massachussets 1921 View attachment 297846 View attachment 297847
Another speaking - heavy (for her time) with thw side armour ship. Does such term exist?
USS Galena was an ironclad sloop of war as constructed, her armour was found to be useless and removed after which she was a simple steam sloop. USS Massachusetts is a super-dreadnought battleship.
 
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#14
Thank you. That is a lot of work you have done. My book has drawings of all the known Confederate ironclad and iron protected vessels plus many projects but there are certainly some missing so I don't pretend to know them all !
Can you imagine - you have opened me eyes, as I can speak so. Its a direct translation from Russian. I thought that there were not more than 4 CSA ironclads, what error I was in! I tell now to evrybody in Russia about that REALLY AMAZING fact. Grace to your work
 

Carronade

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#15
Exactly what to call the ironclads is an interesting question. Oscar Parkes titled one famous book British Battleships: "Warrior", 1860 to "Vanguard", 1950. For a time, ships were referred to by the arrangement of their armament: broadside ironclads, casemate ships, turret ships, etc. "Battleship" became standard in the late 1800s, with main batteries in turrets or barbettes.
 
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#16
Exactly what to call the ironclads is an interesting question. Oscar Parkes titled one famous book British Battleships: "Warrior", 1860 to "Vanguard", 1950. For a time, ships were referred to by the arrangement of their armament: broadside ironclads, casemate ships, turret ships, etc. "Battleship" became standard in the late 1800s, with main batteries in turrets or barbettes.
Carronade, you see my point! In Russian there is a term "броненосец" a ship (any ship) fitted with the side armor. There is another term "линейный корабль" it means the battle-ship-of-the-line and it originates from the sailing fleet and was reintroduced in 1907 succeeding the official "эскадренный броненосец" that means a SQUADRON ship (any SQUADRON ship) fitted with the side armor. All the 1 rank ships (battleships) thus were just reclassified without any modernisation or technical improvement. But "броненосец" (any ship fitted with the side armor) remains as a common term. I thought that with the term "battleship" is the barrely the same story.
 

Carronade

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#17
Ok, I'll admit almost complete ignorance of correct American 19th century naval terminology, but weren't the largest of the US warships of the time called something like sloop rigged frigates, because the guns are all mounted on a single gundeck?
Looked back at this and realized I forgot to mention that "ship" back then referred to a vessel with three masts, with square sails on each. Frigates and sloops were ship rigged, but around the time of the Civil War some sloops began using barque rig, still three masts but square sails only on two, the fore and main masts, with the mizzen mast fore-and-aft rigged.

Ship and barque were also the rigs of the largest merchant ships. Towards the end of the days of sail, some had four or even five masts - as did some ironclads like HMS Minotaur:

HMSminotaur.jpg
 
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#18
Looked back at this and realized I forgot to mention that "ship" back then referred to a vessel with three masts, with square sails on each. Frigates and sloops were ship rigged, but around the time of the Civil War some sloops began using barque rig, still three masts but square sails only on two, the fore and main masts, with the mizzen mast fore-and-aft rigged.

Ship and barque were also the rigs of the largest merchant ships. Towards the end of the days of sail, some had four or even five masts - as did some ironclads like HMS Minotaur:

View attachment 297874
Thank you! All are drawn.

1861bo-agincourt.png

1861bo-minotaur.png

1861bo-northumberland-Model.png
 
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#19
Looked back at this and realized I forgot to mention that "ship" back then referred to a vessel with three masts, with square sails on each. Frigates and sloops were ship rigged, but around the time of the Civil War some sloops began using barque rig, still three masts but square sails only on two, the fore and main masts, with the mizzen mast fore-and-aft rigged.

Ship and barque were also the rigs of the largest merchant ships. Towards the end of the days of sail, some had four or even five masts - as did some ironclads like HMS Minotaur:

View attachment 297874
An this photo - seems to be HMS Northumberland
 

rebelatsea

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#20
Exactly what to call the ironclads is an interesting question. Oscar Parkes titled one famous book British Battleships: "Warrior", 1860 to "Vanguard", 1950. For a time, ships were referred to by the arrangement of their armament: broadside ironclads, casemate ships, turret ships, etc. "Battleship" became standard in the late 1800s, with main batteries in turrets or barbettes.
I think Oscar Parkes terminology has more or less become standard for the era. You will see that I have tried to create some order in my ships in that something like CSS Mississippi I class as an ironclad frigate, whereas CSS Richmond is an ironclad sloop, using the description is use at the time.
 



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