Golden Thread Copse of Trees or Ziegler Grove

That meeting likely happened in Bachelder's fantasy, given the facts that a. he approximated the meeting to have happened around 1868 or so and b. Biggs's property was at the other side of the seminary ridge, since it was a Confederate Hospital during the battle and after he returned he put in for some serious reimbursement for damages. Thus, it is unlikely that a few years later he would be chopping someone else's woods. Unless it was not Biggs and Bachelder was confused... Not that unlikely.
The Biggs House is located very near the Leister House, plot 407 on the original topographical US Survey of the battlefield approximately 150 yards behind today's US Army monument.
 
To be fair, not only Hazard's guns were firing. McGilvery wrote that shortly before the infantry attack began, his artillery batteries opened back up (after having ceased fire earlier but not on orders from Hunt, at least according to McGilvery), firing steadily before changing targets to the attacking columns.

If Osborn wrote about Hunt and Meade being on Cemetery Hill (it's not in his report but his diary was published so it may be there), he was mistaken as to the timing. It's likely that Meade didn't make it Cemetery Hill until well after the infantry attack had begun and whether or not Hunt made it to Cemetery Hill during the cannonade is sketchy.

Ryan
Meade was on Powers Hill when the cannonade commenced, he then rode quickly north up the Baltimore Pike and into the cemetery. "The Papers of Maj. Thomas W. Osborn" pp. 72-73.

I was wrong about the meeting with Hunt and Meade, Meade confided to Osborn that we wanted the Confederates to attack and that he should preserve his ammunition for the attack they all knew was coming, in fact possibly instigate the attack. Hunt rode up soon after Meade had departed, Osborn, Howard, Schurz and Hunt discussed the "lure":
"I said to these officers that I believed that if we should stop firing along our entire line suddenly and as though he artillery on Cemetery Hill was driven off the field, Lee would at once develop his plans--that if the General would give me permission, I would stop my batteries at once. Hunt said that he thought I was correct and if Howard agreed to it, he would give the order. Howard thought the suggestion a good one and said that he would like to see the experiment tried...Hunt then gave the order to stop firing and said that he would ride down the line and stop all the batteries." "The Papers of Maj Thomas W. Osborn" p. 39

Meade, Osborn, Howard and Hunt had come to the same conclusion, save ammunition and lure the Confederates to attack.

McGilvery's guns were silent, by his own report for over an hour and a half until they were ordered to start a slow deliberate counter battery fire, which was not returned by the Confederates. The fire, according to Alexander was directed towards the center of the Union line. Captain Patrick Hart's 15th NY battery was ordered to fire by Hancock, even though they were under the command of McGilvery and he replied to Hancock that he was under orders from both McGilvery and Hunt not to fire. "Hart to Hunt" letter June 30th 1879.

I guess what I am trying to say, Copse or not, it should be obvious that the center of the Union line was the "target", just based on the pummeling that the area took by Confederate artillery. Almost every battery around the Copse was destroyed or severely impacted by the cannonade, maybe because they continued to fire on Hancock's orders, but most likely a classic softening up before the charge.
 
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"After battle accounts" is the key here. Bachelderean mythology. Alexander's writings were published in the next century 44 years after the fact and were influenced by a lot of garbage, including Bachelder's. There were Federal guns all over which needed to be silenced, and based on contemporary sources, the only ones that were not attacked were the ones at the LRT to the left of the Federal line, which ended up to be a pain in Garnett's (and assume Kemper's) neck during the charge. This is a great map, btw:

View attachment 130066
Basil Biggs, apparently bought the Frey farm not long after the battle, not sure, but it appears as if the land of the farm would encompass the Copse, which would corroborate Bachelder's story. Accounts say that Biggs made quite a bit of money helping to inter soldiers, destroy/burn horses and re-inter soldiers to the national cemetery. The farm was located in the approximate area of the reserve artillery, very near the Leister house.

The Park Service and Scott Hartwig, seem to be convinced of the veracity of the claim.
 
Gettysburg Greg said:
View attachment 129368 The purpose of this thread is not necessarily to bring up the discussion of copse vs. grove as the actual "aiming point" of Longstreet's Assault-Pickett's Charge.

My apologies @Gettysburg Greg -- I overlooked this statement
 
Basil Biggs, apparently bought the Frey farm not long after the battle, not sure, but it appears as if the land of the farm would encompass the Copse, which would corroborate Bachelder's story. Accounts say that Biggs made quite a bit of money helping to inter soldiers, destroy/burn horses and re-inter soldiers to the national cemetery. The farm was located in the approximate area of the reserve artillery, very near the Leister house.

The Park Service and Scott Hartwig, seem to be convinced of the veracity of the claim.

The Frey Farm was a Union Hospital. More details here, including its exact location in a map. There is no way that the CoT was part of that property, since it was located on the East side of Taneytown Road, South of the Granite Schoolhouse Rd, and there are probably a good half dozen properties between there and the CoT.

Of course the Park Service has bought all of the Bachelder mythology. Is this news? They still misdirect people with his markers and will continue to do so until someone from the inside has the guts to tell History the way it happened. But it makes good stories and sells postcards and stuff.


2006hospitals18.jpg
 
The Frey Farm was a Union Hospital. More details here, including its exact location in a map. There is no way that the CoT was part of that property, since it was located on the East side of Taneytown Road, South of the Granite Schoolhouse Rd, and there are probably a good half dozen properties between there and the CoT.

Of course the Park Service has bought all of the Bachelder mythology. Is this news? They still misdirect people with his markers and will continue to do so until someone from the inside has the guts to tell History the way it happened. But it makes good stories and sells postcards and stuff.


2006hospitals18.jpg
Peter Frey Farm
 
The Frey Farm was a Union Hospital. More details here, including its exact location in a map. There is no way that the CoT was part of that property, since it was located on the East side of Taneytown Road, South of the Granite Schoolhouse Rd, and there are probably a good half dozen properties between there and the CoT.

Of course the Park Service has bought all of the Bachelder mythology. Is this news? They still misdirect people with his markers and will continue to do so until someone from the inside has the guts to tell History the way it happened. But it makes good stories and sells postcards and stuff.


2006hospitals18.jpg
The Peter Frey Farm was the property that Biggs purchased and is no more than 1000 feet from the Copse
 
39.811126, -77.231523 finally

Awesome! Thank you. Here it is in modern aerial view (you can actually see the fences as well) :

33801321376_5375eca53c_b.jpg


Here is an older map with properties and property lines (still has the old train btw). That property is the one in the opposite site of the Y in "Taneytown" Rd.

33801320796_eacde8c4b5_b.jpg


Close, but the property line does not include the CoT, and there are at least 5 other properties closer to the CoT... Could be, but...
 
Awesome! Thank you. Here it is in modern aerial view (you can actually see the fences as well) :

View attachment 130342

Here is an older map with properties and property lines (still has the old train btw). That property is the one in the opposite site of the Y in "Taneytown" Rd.

View attachment 130343

Close, but the property line does not include the CoT, and there are at least 5 other properties closer to the CoT... Could be, but...
If the train is on the older map, wouldn't Biggs have already sold the 7 acres? I think together we can solve this mystery. No doubt Bachelder knew who he bought the property from, though I am having a devil of a time finding it online. I have Googled property owners of Gettysburg angle, checked period maps.
 
Better check your understanding of the battle. Longstreet does not "march up the Emmitsburg Road on both days(2 and 3)."
Thank you for your response.
Perhaps my choice of words was misleading: after all, the advance on both days was not marching as in a parade.
With that adjustment, I believe my comments reflect my understanding. Lee's plan- on both July 2 and July 3, 1863- was to attack Cemetery Hill using a pincer movement: Ewell would attack from roughly the north, while Longstreet attacked from roughly the south.
On July 2, Longstreet attempted to move his troops "by a route concealed from the view of the enemy" to take up a position to advance northward. "General Lee's orders were to guide my left by the Emmitsburg Road."<James Longstreet, From Manassas to Appomatox: Memoirs of the Civil war in America. (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott, 1896), pp.366, 367.>
On July 3, Pettigrew, Davis, et. al., certainly advanced roughly perpendicular to the Emmitsburg Road, while Armistead, Garnett and Kemper advanced first to the road, then turned left to advance roughly along it.
On both days, Lee's plan failed. And on both days, the advancing Confederate forces 'lost their way', straying from their intended path. On July 2, because Sickles lay unexpectedly in their path. On July 3, because of the horrendous, deadly gauntlet of fire they were subjected to.
 
If the train is on the older map, wouldn't Biggs have already sold the 7 acres? I think together we can solve this mystery. No doubt Bachelder knew who he bought the property from, though I am having a devil of a time finding it online. I have Googled property owners of Gettysburg angle, checked period maps.

I think that it will be interesting to see who owned that property from the time of the battle to the time that was bought by the Park. I might check the Gettysburg borough deed records if I am there on a working day.
 
I just found the minutes of the GBMA and Biggs sold the property (7 acres) to the Association on December 21st, 1881 for the building of what was to be Hancock Ave., along with others. According to the Park Service, records indicate that the 7 acres included the Copse. I would love to see what you find out from the deed records. I have great interest in this for a couple of reasons, when I was a kid, my uncle, who was an electrical engineer for General Dynamics, built a metal detector. We had to go use it and what better place than Cemetery Ridge at the Angle?

I have never seen a Park Ranger run so quickly in my life, after we had detected for 20-30 minutes, out comes a Ranger from the direction of the maintenance building. Since this was 1971 and we were in the open without trying to hide anything, he gave us a lecture asked if we found anything and let us go sulking back to the car. I handed over a watering bit and a bayonet part, but my utilities had many bulging pockets. The amount of metal there was astounding. The other, my GG Grandfather was General William H. Forney, of Alabama and was on the Board of the GBMA/ Battlefield Commission. OK three, my dad is buried in the veteran's annex Cemetery Hill.

So my interest is not only historical, it is very personal.
 
Wrong, he stated in a letter to The Southern Historical Society in 1877, http://www.civilwar.org/battlefield...ory-articles/e-p-alexander-at-gettysburg.html only 14 years after the battle that the 18 guns were to be silenced. They were the only ones keeping up a high rate of fire. Hunt had ordered all batteries to cease fire, but Hancock belayed those orders to sustain the morale of his infantry. Meade also concurred with Hunt, in fact Osborne in his after action report a month later even wrote about a meeting with Hunt and Meade discussing their desire to have the Confederates attack. The meeting took place in the cemetery and the thought was that if they did not return fire the Confederates would assume their barrage had been effective.
Just to be clear, nowhere in the referenced letter or elsewhere in his works that I have read does Alexander state that "the 18 guns were to be silenced."
Further, it is clear from Federal sources that much of their line- not just one point- on Cemetery Ridge sustained casualties.
One wishes Alexander had been precise if he, indeed, had been ordered to focus on a specific target. It is only when he sends his message to Pickett that we learn that "at least 18 guns are still firing from the Cemetery itself."
 
I just found the minutes of the GBMA and Biggs sold the property (7 acres) to the Association on December 21st, 1881 for the building of what was to be Hancock Ave., along with others.

That helps! 7 acres is about 305,000 sq. feet. In the post #72 up there in the aerial picture, the distance between the house and Hancock Ave is about 1,000 feet. Based on this, if you look in the older map that has that property delineated (the one with several buildings on the Taneytown Rd and the jagged fence to its S) and extend it through Hancock Avenue to the Codori property line, that is at least that 305,000 sq feet, and it excludes the CoT.
 
Thank you for your response.
Perhaps my choice of words was misleading: after all, the advance on both days was not marching as in a parade.
With that adjustment, I believe my comments reflect my understanding. Lee's plan- on both July 2 and July 3, 1863- was to attack Cemetery Hill using a pincer movement: Ewell would attack from roughly the north, while Longstreet attacked from roughly the south.
On July 2, Longstreet attempted to move his troops "by a route concealed from the view of the enemy" to take up a position to advance northward. "General Lee's orders were to guide my left by the Emmitsburg Road."<James Longstreet, From Manassas to Appomatox: Memoirs of the Civil war in America. (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott, 1896), pp.366, 367.>
On July 3, Pettigrew, Davis, et. al., certainly advanced roughly perpendicular to the Emmitsburg Road, while Armistead, Garnett and Kemper advanced first to the road, then turned left to advance roughly along it.
On both days, Lee's plan failed. And on both days, the advancing Confederate forces 'lost their way', straying from their intended path. On July 2, because Sickles lay unexpectedly in their path. On July 3, because of the horrendous, deadly gauntlet of fire they were subjected to.
Your choice of words "Longstreet marching up the Emmitsburg Road for 2 days" is not "misleading" as you try to say above ..It's simply incorrect. Your reference above to Lee's orders to Longstreet has nothing to do with, and does not support, your "Longstreet marching up the Emmitsburg Road for 2 days" claim. Lee's order to Longstreet that you quote above is regarding McLaws and Hood getting in position to launch their Day 2 attack against Sickles Left.
 
That helps! 7 acres is about 305,000 sq. feet. In the post #72 up there in the aerial picture, the distance between the house and Hancock Ave is about 1,000 feet. Based on this, if you look in the older map that has that property delineated (the one with several buildings on the Taneytown Rd and the jagged fence to its S) and extend it through Hancock Avenue to the Codori property line, that is at least that 305,000 sq feet, and it excludes the CoT.
Park records indicate that the Copse was purchased from Biggs, until we find other evidence (borough records) it is what we have. According to the Cleveland Gazette, Basil Biggs owned 120 acres of land on Cemetery Ridge in the June 18, 1892 issue, this would be after he sold the 7 acres to the GBMA. The other land owners affected by Hancock Ave:

Mr. McCreary submitted the report of the viewers appointed by the Court to assess damages by reason of opening the Avenue from Little Round Top to the Taneytown road. The awards of the jury were as follows:

Peter D. Swisher $162.35

George Weikert $110-

Wm. Patterson $85-

Leander Hummelbaugh $3-

Simon J. Codori $139.06

Basil Biggs $475.12 (Page 84) Page 84 refers to Biggs being able to bring in the wheat on the 7 acres.

Widow Leister $21.87

Jacob Benner $95.41

Fred. G. Pfeffer $900.00
 
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