Golden Thread Copse of Trees or Ziegler Grove

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#1
jpeg.jpg


copse1.jpg


Despite the fact that several photographic teams were in Gettysburg in the days and weeks after the battle, the significance of the Angle and Copse of Trees was apparently not understood at the time since no images were recorded of this area until years after the battle. However, thanks to the super hi resoulution digital versions now available for downloading, it is possible to see the Copse of Trees in a Brady image taken from Little Round Top on July 15th, 1863. The small umbrella shaped copse is clearly seen in the detail below which contrasts significantly with the much larger Ziegler Grove. You may be aware that there are many who believe that Ziegler Grove was the true target of Pickett's Charge. Viewed from the Confederate position on Seminary Ridge, the Copse is dwarfed by the large grove as seen in the photo. I will include a photo that I took to demonstrate the modern view. Remember that Ziegler Grove was larger in 1863.

20yr75CL.jpg
 
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#6
They may have stood out on a clear day but on that day I doubt they stood out for long if at all. We're used to seeing fully grown/mature trees when we visit the field. At the time of the battle they were far from as prominent as those in Zigler's Grove.
 
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#7
from lrt jpeg.jpg


Until 1876, there were no photographs taken that included the Copse of Trees. However, thanks to Mathew Brady's panorama taken from the summit of Little Round Top, and the high resolution version we now have, we actually get a pretty good view of the Copse of Trees and Ziegler's Grove as they looked during the battle. The purpose of this thread is not necessarily to bring up the discussion of copse vs. grove as the actual "aiming point" of Longstreet's Assault-Pickett's Charge. However, the photo leaves no doubt about the comparative size of the Copse and Ziegler's Grove. Just an observation. :D I labeled the Brian house that is located between the two tall trees even though not really visible in the photo.
 
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infomanpa

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#11
Hmmm....I have always been told it was the copse...BUT....the grove is a much more visible point of reference. But then it could have just been a series of left obliques that put it in that direction??? No way to truly know I guess. Thanks @Gettysburg Greg :smile:
Seems like you are making an "oblique reference" here.:tongue:
 

WJC

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#12
Hmmm....I have always been told it was the copse...BUT....the grove is a much more visible point of reference. But then it could have just been a series of left obliques that put it in that direction??? No way to truly know I guess. Thanks @Gettysburg Greg :smile:
A number of researchers have shown that the "Copse of trees" was not- and could not have been- the objective of Longstreet's Assault.
It was never mentioned until 1876, long after the battle. At the time of the battle, the "copse of trees' was a group of saplings at best, not visible from the Confederate lines or along their advance.
Though Mr. Bachelder performed a great service in preserving so much of the battlefield, he also initiated and perpetrated a number of myths, most notably the "Copse of Trees".
Incidentally, a great source for anyone interested in Lee's real intentions for July 3, 1863 is Tom Carhart, Lost triumph: Lee's Real Plan at Gettysburg- and why it Failed. (New York: G. P. Putnam 's sons, 2005)
 

WJC

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#13
Despite the fact that several photographic teams were in Gettysburg in the days and weeks after the battle, the significance of the Angle and Copse of Trees was apparently not understood at the time since no images were recorded of this area until years after the battle. However, thanks to the super hi resoulution digital versions now available for downloading, it is possible to see the Copse of Trees in a Brady image taken from Little Round Top on July 15th, 1863. The small umbrella shaped copse is clearly seen in the detail below which contrasts significantly with the much larger Ziegler Grove. You may be aware that there are many who believe that Ziegler Grove was the true target of Pickett's Charge. Viewed from the Confederate position on Seminary Ridge, the Copse is dwarfed by the large grove as seen in the photo. I will include a photo that I took to demonstrate the modern view. Remember that Ziegler Grove was larger in 1863.
View attachment 91110

View attachment 91111
Thanks for sharing these views.
Perhaps the reason that no one recorded images of the "Copse of Trees" for years after the battle was that it was not significant. After all, at the time of the battle it was little more than a bunch of saplings....
 

JohnW.

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#15
A number of researchers have shown that the "Copse of trees" was not- and could not have been- the objective of Longstreet's Assault.
It was never mentioned until 1876, long after the battle. At the time of the battle, the "copse of trees' was a group of saplings at best, not visible from the Confederate lines or along their advance.
Though Mr. Bachelder performed a great service in preserving so much of the battlefield, he also initiated and perpetrated a number of myths, most notably the "Copse of Trees".
Incidentally, a great source for anyone interested in Lee's real intentions for July 3, 1863 is Tom Carhart, Lost triumph: Lee's Real Plan at Gettysburg- and why it Failed. (New York: G. P. Putnam 's sons, 2005)
Thanks @WJC I will check out that book. I'm always interested in reading anything that has anything to do with the events of July 3.
 

FZ11

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#16
A number of researchers have shown that the "Copse of trees" was not- and could not have been- the objective of Longstreet's Assault.
It was never mentioned until 1876, long after the battle. At the time of the battle, the "copse of trees' was a group of saplings at best, not visible from the Confederate lines or along their advance.
Though Mr. Bachelder performed a great service in preserving so much of the battlefield, he also initiated and perpetrated a number of myths, most notably the "Copse of Trees".
Incidentally, a great source for anyone interested in Lee's real intentions for July 3, 1863 is Tom Carhart, Lost triumph: Lee's Real Plan at Gettysburg- and why it Failed. (New York: G. P. Putnam 's sons, 2005)
Tom Carhart? Thanks,but,no thanks.
 
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#17
We know from history it was supposed to be the Copse of trees...After the first shot ....Battle plans go into the circular file.... does any one know for sure it was Zieglers Grove or the now famous Copse of trees that was their focal point........(just my opinion)
 
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#18
A number of researchers have shown that the "Copse of trees" was not- and could not have been- the objective of Longstreet's Assault.
It was never mentioned until 1876, long after the battle. At the time of the battle, the "copse of trees' was a group of saplings at best, not visible from the Confederate lines or along their advance.
Though Mr. Bachelder performed a great service in preserving so much of the battlefield, he also initiated and perpetrated a number of myths, most notably the "Copse of Trees".
Incidentally, a great source for anyone interested in Lee's real intentions for July 3, 1863 is Tom Carhart, Lost triumph: Lee's Real Plan at Gettysburg- and why it Failed. (New York: G. P. Putnam 's sons, 2005)
Do not read Carhart's book. It's not worth the paper it's printed on. Check out Earl Hess' Pickett's Charge: The Last Attack at Gettysburg. Except for the disappointing title, it is a good book. Or check out George Stewart's older book Pickett's Charge.

Ryan
 
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#19
We know from history it was supposed to be the Copse of trees...After the first shot ....Battle plans go into the circular file.... does any one know for sure it was Zieglers Grove or the now famous Copse of trees that was their focal point........(just my opinion)
In all my research, I've never found a contemporary source that points at any one location as THE target of the attack. Other than whatever point they happened to converge on which, owing to variables and terrain, ended up being at the Angle. Virtually every source that indicates a target was written after the fact.

Ryan
 
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BillO

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#20
Do not read Carhart's book. It's not worth the paper it's printed on. Check out Earl Hess' Pickett's Charge: The Last Attack at Gettysburg. Except for the disappointing title, it is a good book. Or check out George Stewart's older book Pickett's Charge.

Ryan
Your opinion. I've read it twice now and it does bring up some interesting questions.
 



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