Confederate Nationalism and Iconography.

Desert Kid

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#1
For sake of argument, the year is 1870. The CSA has gained it's independence through exhaustion in 1864. It consists of it's 11 core states and the Indian Territory. General Robert E. Lee (Ret.) has just passed away from either a heart attack or stroke. President John C. Breckinridge has designated January 19th a national holiday in remembrance of Lee.

In Confederate national memory, Lee has become the "Second Washington", and joins the pantheon next to Washington, Jefferson and even John C. Calhoun in the annals of memorials. Much unlike Davis, who at this point is still widely disliked by many. And will be so for a long time.

So, who exactly does the CSA venerate from it's own revolution? What kind of national identity forms? Will it be anything like the South of our timeline? Or something different? Whose statues line the streets of Richmond?

For argument, the current flag of the CSA is the "Blood Stained Banner", the Third National.

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jgoodguy

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#4
Just remember, in the CSA, Birmingham has a decent chance of retaining its original name of Elyton.
Birmingham was the merger of 3 small communities Elyton, Powdery and Carrollsville. Driven by businessmen, they named it Birmingham for pizzaz Birmingham England was famous for Iron and Steelmaking. In the CSA speculated; it would be honoring a close ally.

For national pride which sounds better, Our premiere Steel City is Eylton or Birmingham. Besides Ely for which it was named was a Yankee.
 
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#5
Birmingham was the merger of 3 small communities Elyton, Powdery and Carrollsville. Driven by businessmen, they named it Birmingham for pizzaz Birmingham England was famous for Iron and Steelmaking. In the CSA speculated; it would be honoring a close ally.

For national pride which sounds better, Our premiere Steel City is Eylton or Birmingham. Besides Ely for which it was named was a Yankee.
Not sure that Britain would be that close an ally of a slave holding confederac?. France possibly if the empire survives but even then its going to be at some distance and would mean alienating the far wealthier northern market so I suspect unlikely.

Especially since if its a case of the south winning on its own back with union will being sapped by 1864 rather than a Trent type British intervention there's no reason for Britain to be politically close to the south and good reasons for it to be at some distance. [Better relations with the US and hostility towards slavery being the obvious two.]
 

jgoodguy

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#6
Not sure that Britain would be that close an ally of a slave holding confederac?. France possibly if the empire survives but even then its going to be at some distance and would mean alienating the far wealthier northern market so I suspect unlikely.

Especially since if its a case of the south winning on its own back with union will being sapped by 1864 rather than a Trent type British intervention there's no reason for Britain to be politically close to the south and good reasons for it to be at some distance. [Better relations with the US and hostility towards slavery being the obvious two.]
British were good customers and would supply arms too. British upper crust thought well of the CSA. Likely the first to recognize the CSA.
 

wbull1

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#7
Is Maximillian I still emperor of Mexico? France would be a much more likely supporter of the CSA in exchange for support for their foreign adventure than England. The upper crust of England had good reason to fear how commoners would react to supporting a nation with slavery. In my opinion, of course.
 

Desert Kid

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#8
Is Maximillian I still emperor of Mexico? France would be a much more likely supporter of the CSA in exchange for support for their foreign adventure than England. The upper crust of England had good reason to fear how commoners would react to supporting a nation with slavery. In my opinion, of course.
Yes in this scenario Maximilian is in control of Mexico and the Federalists there were quashed by Confederate support of the French.
 
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#9
British were good customers and would supply arms too. British upper crust thought well of the CSA. Likely the first to recognize the CSA.
Given the dominance of laissez faire policies at the time there will be plenty of British and others willing to trade with the south, including supplying arms. However political support is, as wbull1 says, unlikely to be significant considering the British stance on slavery. You are also likely to see clashes if the new south seeks to reopen the slave trade, including quite possibly naval ones.
 

uaskme

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#10
Not sure that Britain would be that close an ally of a slave holding confederac?. France possibly if the empire survives but even then its going to be at some distance and would mean alienating the far wealthier northern market so I suspect unlikely.

Especially since if its a case of the south winning on its own back with union will being sapped by 1864 rather than a Trent type British intervention there's no reason for Britain to be politically close to the south and good reasons for it to be at some distance. [Better relations with the US and hostility towards slavery being the obvious two.]
British Government had no outward Hostlity to Slavery. Neither did the Republicans. As long as they got what they wanted!
 

uaskme

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#11
Most of the South wanted to grow it’s economy outside of Cotton. Some Lower South Planters didn’t. Slavery was sinking to the South and West. South built Railroads. They wanted to direct trade with England, expand that trade to the West and California. Trade also means Political Power. As does the Railroad. The Upper South’s future was not in Slavery.

Many have picketed their Brains over Cotton.
 
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#12
British Government had no outward Hostlity to Slavery. Neither did the Republicans. As long as they got what they wanted!
Would have to disagree there as the policy was heavily against slavery and the slave trade. If nothing else think of the lives and money spent on the anti-slave patrols.
 

jackt62

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#13
I suppose we don't have to assume this scenario for the sake of argument. After all, the proponents of the "Lost Cause" were successful in venerating the officers, soldiers, and officials of the CSA for a century through statuary, paintings, memorabilia, etc., no differently than what an independent CSA would have done.
 

Desert Kid

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#15
Beauregard would not be forgotten (he would make sure of that). "The story": he won Charleston 1861, 1st Bull Run, almost won Shiloh and won Charleston 1863-64.
I imagine the first few major memorials will be of Jackson, AS Johnston and Benjamin Hardin Helm. If not Jeb Stuart worked into it as well.
 

DaveBrt

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#16
I imagine the first few major memorials will be of Jackson, AS Johnston and Benjamin Hardin Helm. If not Jeb Stuart worked into it as well.
I doubt AS Johnston and Helm (who?) would have been in the first tier of heroes. Stuart, Longstreet and Joe Johnston -- the leaders when the war was won and who had participated in many battles were much more likely than one killed in his first battle (which he lost).
 

Desert Kid

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#17
I doubt AS Johnston and Helm (who?) would have been in the first tier of heroes. Stuart, Longstreet and Joe Johnston -- the leaders when the war was won and who had participated in many battles were much more likely than one killed in his first battle (which he lost).
Benjamin Hardin Helm was the first commander of the Orphan Brigade and was a good friend of Secretary of War Breckinridge, also was Lincoln’s brother in law interestingly.

Albert Sydney Johnston was lionized some after his death at Shiloh, viewed as cut down in his prime.
 

wbull1

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#18
Meanwhile back in the remaining United States, slavery ends with compensation to slaveholders. England refuses any idea of Canadian self-rule. Spain doubles down on forcing Santo Domingo back into colonial status.
 

Desert Kid

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#19
Meanwhile back in the remaining United States, slavery ends with compensation to slaveholders. England refuses any idea of Canadian self-rule. Spain doubles down on forcing Santo Domingo back into colonial status.
With McClellan being President, no 13th, 14th or 15th Ammendments. And likely a lot of very unhappy people in more secessionist areas of Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri.

The national Capitol has been moved to Philadelphia.
 
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#20
Meanwhile back in the remaining United States, slavery ends with compensation to slaveholders. England refuses any idea of Canadian self-rule. Spain doubles down on forcing Santo Domingo back into colonial status.
Why?? Possibly the Canadians might be less willing to have independence if the rump US is reacting by sounding more aggressive but Britain was quite willing to encourage it OTL and doubt this would change.

Don't know enough about the local history to say on Santo Domingo but a weakened US probably isn't going to make a significant difference given all the problems Spain had during this period.

One thing that might happen is that the south tries a grab for somewhere in the Caribbean to expand slavery. Cuba is usually considered the most likely candidate but that would depend on the status of Spain plus the likelihood of other powers intervening. The US might but unless its caught up in a serious crisis in Europe Britain is very likely to.
 

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