Muzzleldrs Confederate Lorenz Rifles

tbuckley

Sergeant
Joined
Jul 13, 2015
Hello need information on a loreze lock plate. It is marked with a British crown and the word London.

Welcome from eastern Ohio. Would it be possible for you to post pictures of the lock plate and any marking on the Lorenz as Package4 said?
 

Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
Hello need information on a loreze lock plate. It is marked with a British crown and the word London.

Things like this are the reason I enjoy the Austrian guns so much.

A photograph would be helpful to make sure, but think I have seen what you are describing. That is, a Muster 1854 System Lorenz lockplate which has been overstamped with a British style crown and the word "London." Please see my attached photo. In my example the Austrian Kaiser's double headed eagle and the manufacturing date of the lock - "859" - are still there under the overstamped markings. I'm planning on using it as an example in my book of fraudulent sales practices, much like the System Augustin and System Lorenz guns which were reworked in Liege for the African trade and are now being sold as "Civil War" guns. If someone sold it to you as part of a "British" made System Lorenz weapon, or "Civil War" gun [in that configuration], it was fraud. It also devalues a perfectly valid historical object.

This can be one of the side effects of the stamps made for all the "defarbing" cr*p.

Regards,
Don Dixon

(Photo copyright - Don Dixon)
London System Lorenz Lockplate.png
 
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1860man

Private
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
I doubt it is a Lorenz then, most likely an Enfield lockplate, please post pictures. The Confederacy did purchase Lorenz muskets through Isaac, Campbell & Co, but to my knowledge they were all in original Austrian condition and caliber.

And welcome from Maryland!
Lorenz it is, has all the proper markings ,crown and London under Lorenz markings . as soon as I can I will Post pic . thanks from communist state of va
 

1860man

Private
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
Mine looks like that one later date. I will take pic as soon as I can thanks
Things like this are the reason I enjoy the Austrian guns so much.

A photograph would be helpful to make sure, but think I have seen what you are describing. That is, a Muster 1854 System Lorenz lockplate which has been overstamped with a British style crown and the word "London." Please see my attached photo. In my example the Austrian Kaiser's double headed eagle and the manufacturing date of the lock - "859" - are still there under the overstamped markings. I'm planning on using it as an example in my book of fraudulent sales practices, much like the System Augustin and System Lorenz guns which were reworked in Liege for the African trade and are now being sold as "Civil War" guns. If someone sold it to you as part of a "British" made System Lorenz weapon, or "Civil War" gun [in that configuration], it was fraud. It also devalues a perfectly valid historical object.

This can be one of the side effects of the stamps made for all the "defarbing" cr*p.

Regards,
Don Dixon

(Photo copyright - Don Dixon)
View attachment 343192
 

1860man

Private
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
When the Lorenz was bored out to 58 ,what kind of rifling did they use. 3 or 4 lands and groove?
 

Banjo Pete

Private
Joined
Nov 14, 2014
I'm guessing that the damaged Lorenz on display at V.M.I. was rendered safe by removing the powder and ball through the breech end !
 

Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
OK how do I know if was bored out in the USA, or in Europe.

You don't.

The Federal Army's importers contracted with the Austrian Army's arms contractors to manufacture some in .58 caliber, and they arranged with the Vienna Arsenal to bore some of the Austrian Army rifle muskets they were purchasing out and re-rifle them

Belgian law did not require proof of arms that had been manufactured elsewhere - and presumably passed proof there - and were merely repaired, refurbished, or transformed in Liege. The King changed the law to require proof in 1864 following the damage to the reputation of the Belgian gun trade from some of the reworked trash shipped to America to arm the Federals and Confederates.

I know of no system of marking the Muster 1854, Type II, rifle muskets which were bored out and re-rifled to .58 caliber in the United States by the Federal Army. One would think that they would have been inspected after the work was done and marked with inspectors' marks, but it doesn't appear that that was the case.

In a case in point, Henry Leman transformed approximately 8,000 Muster 1842 System Augustin smoothbore muskets from tubelock to percussion for the Federal Army in late 1862 and early 1863. His contract required inspection, and he was required to reimburse the Army for any arms damaged during transformation. So, we're dealing with a relatively small number of weapons, worked on by one contractor, who's contract required inspection. But, I've never seen any of these arms with Federal inspectors' marks.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

Don Dixon

Sergeant
Joined
Oct 24, 2008
Location
Fairfax, VA, USA
Thanks for the information. Can you instruct me on how to post pictures?. And were did that lock come from?

I saw the lock at Lodgewood at the N-SSA fall national matches amongst their parts for sale. They had no information regarding its origin, and didn't represent it to be anything but an overstamped lock.

To post a photo: Take your photo with a cell phone or camera. Move the photo to the photograph file in your PC or laptop. Write your response to this thread. Go to the "Attach files" section at the bottom of the response screen and use it to attach your photograph to your response.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 
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1860man

Private
Joined
Jan 10, 2020
I saw the lock at Lodgewood at the N-SSA fall national matches amongst their parts for sale. They had no information regarding its origin, and didn't represent it to be anything but an overstamped lock.

To post a photo: Take your photo with a cell phone or camera. Move the photo to the photograph file in your PC or laptop. Write your response to this thread. Go to the "Attach files" section at the bottom of the response screen and use it to attach your photograph to your response.

Regards,
Don Dixon
That's why it looks like mine , lol I bought it from lodgewood. My Lorenz came complete, but no guts for the lock. They told me the same thing ,I still have the other lock plate. And hammer.
 

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