Limited Debate Confederate Heritage and Black History in Tension

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Viper21

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#21
Why has it and why should it be? Your generation didn't experience it. You haven't personally met anyone who experienced it (I mean the ACW specifically, not warfare in general).

If the South is right to perpetually play forward it's collective trauma then all the other countries around the world who keep fresh old wounds and have waged wars, civil or international, through the 20th century over grudges, grievances, and traumas often much more real (and in some cases more recent) than what white Southerners experienced.

The Serbs are still upset about losing a battle 700 years ago because that loss resulted in over 500 years of foreign occupation. The South wraps their identity around their failed four-year rebellion, after which they regained full legal and political rights within a decade and were able to perpetuate local white rule for another century.
Really...?? Pop the tube on any of the various cable news stations. I bet you can't go a single day without hearing the word slavery, referring to Slavery in America, specifically in the Southern states. Seems to be a topic many are obsessed with. Though, their generation didn't experience it. They haven't personally met anyone who experienced it.
 

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Joshism

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#22
So it's misguided to have disdain for the people who destroyed more property, killed more livestock, stole more possessions, displaced more civilians, than anyone ever on American soil
"We're white Americans! This doesn't happen to us! We're special!"

Native Americans lost far more than Southerners did.

Being dragged to another continent in chains and forced into slavery I'm pretty sure African-Americans did too.

But please, keep telling us about how your ancestors were so badly mistreated during the failed rebellion they waged over the outcome of a free and fair presidential election.
 

Pat Young

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#23
I think the bolded part is the important part. Yes, some Southerners had more personally perceived slights, especially in a place like Missouri. But the "Yankee atrocities" were mostly imagined and the Yankees themselves far and away. Whole states were barely touched for much of the war. Soldiers from Texas, Alabama, and Florida weren't fighting at Shiloh and Manassas over what the Yankees had done back in their home states.



Why has it and why should it be? Your generation didn't experience it. You haven't personally met anyone who experienced it (I mean the ACW specifically, not warfare in general).

If the South is right to perpetually play forward it's collective trauma then all the other countries around the world who keep fresh old wounds and have waged wars, civil or international, through the 20th century over grudges, grievances, and traumas often much more real (and in some cases more recent) than what white Southerners experienced.

The Serbs are still upset about losing a battle 700 years ago because that loss resulted in over 500 years of foreign occupation. The South wraps their identity around their failed four-year rebellion, after which they regained full legal and political rights within a decade and were able to perpetuate local white rule for another century.
Always odd that some of the same people in perpetual aggrievement over Sherman’s brief March are so dismissive of African Americans who complain of a quarter millennium of slavery followed by a century of Jim Crow. I do consider some of what was done by both sides to be in violation of the laws of war, but the passing down of resentment among Southern whites has less to do with the lingering effects of pillage, and more to do with the post-war crafting of a Confederate identity.
 

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#24
Really...?? Pop the tube on any of the various cable news stations. I bet you can't go a single day without hearing the word slavery, referring to Slavery in America, specifically in the Southern states. Seems to be a topic many are obsessed with. Though, their generation didn't experience it. They haven't personally met anyone who experienced it.
Keep all the nation's sins confined to the South, you really really don't want folks disparaging the "glorious union."
 

Viper21

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#25
"We're white Americans! This doesn't happen to us! We're special!"

Native Americans lost far more than Southerners did.

Being dragged to another continent in chains and forced into slavery I'm pretty sure African-Americans did too.

But please, keep telling us about how your ancestors were so badly mistreated during the failed rebellion they waged over the outcome of a free and fair presidential election.
I simply posted a counter the Sherman/Sheridan weren't that bad theory.

Nice race baiting. I never mentioned the race of folks that suffered under Sherman & Sheridan. I'm confident that lots of Southerners (of all races) suffered under their pillaging.

Native Americans..? I thought we were talking about Sherman & Sheridan. Oh yeah.... that's right. After the trial run wreaking havoc among the civilian population of the South, they mastered their craft by applying the final solution to the Indian problem. Same guys, same & even more brutal tactics. Who were the racists..?

Though plenty of my personal ancestors did suffer, I never mentioned them. However, yes.... I will continue to mention the mistreatment of folks at the hands of Sherman, Sheridan, & even Hunter for that matter, whenever possible.
 

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#26
"We're white Americans! This doesn't happen to us! We're special!"

Native Americans lost far more than Southerners did.

Being dragged to another continent in chains and forced into slavery I'm pretty sure African-Americans did too.

But please, keep telling us about how your ancestors were so badly mistreated during the failed rebellion they waged over the outcome of a free and fair presidential election.
Native Americans lost more than anybody, but I reckon they lacked the political clout to arouse the white man's interest, they were in the way, and their interest was never the US government's interest
 

Viper21

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#27
Always odd that some of the same people in perpetual aggrievement over Sherman’s brief March are so dismissive of African Americans who complain of a quarter millennium of slavery followed by a century of Jim Crow. I do consider some of what was done by both sides to be in violation of the laws of war, but the passing down of resentment among Southern whites has less to do with the lingering effects of pillage, and more to do with the post-war crafting of a Confederate identity.
Or.... simply, pointing out hypocrisy. That 250yrs of slavery you speak of, was the direct result of US law, & policy. The CSA existed 4 yrs. Slavery is a national sin upon the United States. Yet, too often... it is only the Confederacy (& Southerners), & it's brief 4yrs of existence that takes the brunt of the disdain from folks.

I get it. Lots of folks are embarrassed about our nations history. Yet, plenty of people like to gloss over things negative to their heroes, while condemning folks they despise. Though here we are. The greatest nation on the face of the earth. One of the few places in the world where ANYBODY can be SOMEBODY, regardless of their background, race, religion, social standing, or class.

All of our history, good & bad, got us to this point as a country. As Franklin alluded, I hope we can keep it.
 

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#28
Always odd that some of the same people in perpetual aggrievement over Sherman’s brief March are so dismissive of African Americans who complain of a quarter millennium of slavery followed by a century of Jim Crow. I do consider some of what was done by both sides to be in violation of the laws of war, but the passing down of resentment among Southern whites has less to do with the lingering effects of pillage, and more to do with the post-war crafting of a Confederate identity.
"Lest we forget."
 
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#29
Being dragged to another continent in chains and forced into slavery I'm pretty sure African-Americans did too.
Don't leave out the fact that they were enslaved and sold by their fellow black Africans. Slavery did not begin during the Atlantic crossing or once they arrived in North or South America. It began on the African continent and was exported.
 
#30
Or.... simply, pointing out hypocrisy. That 250yrs of slavery you speak of, was the direct result of US law, & policy. The CSA existed 4 yrs. Slavery is a national sin upon the United States. Yet, too often... it is only the Confederacy (& Southerners), & it's brief 4yrs of existence that takes the brunt of the disdain from folks.
Slavery was not because of U.S. law; it was because of state laws -- "state's rights" that prohibited the Federal government from interference. The 4 year Confederacy was born from states whose continuity among them was slavery as a necessary good and whose primary existence was to perpetuate and expand the enslavement of a race of people. That nation died with the stain of slavery intact in 1865.
 
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#31
Really...?? Pop the tube on any of the various cable news stations. I bet you can't go a single day without hearing the word slavery, referring to Slavery in America, specifically in the Southern states. Seems to be a topic many are obsessed with. Though, their generation didn't experience it. They haven't personally met anyone who experienced it.
It's interesting how only certain groups get to perpetuate past grievances, isn't it?
 

Viper21

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#32
It's interesting how only certain groups get to perpetuate past grievances, isn't it?
Everybody has a sad story if you lend them an ear. There's not a group of people that hasn't suffered at some point in history. Some worse than others. Yet, if you listen to today's SJW's, the only people to ever be wronged were Black folks in the South :O o:
 

Viper21

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#34
Slavery was not because of U.S. law; it was because of state laws -- "state's rights" that prohibited the Federal government from interference. The 4 year Confederacy was born from states whose continuity among them was slavery as a necessary good and whose primary existence was to perpetuate and expand the enslavement of a race of people. That nation died with the stain of slavery intact in 1865.
Were those states part of the US..? Asking for a friend.

Nice attempt (as I pointed out earlier), to only blame one section for the sin. Reality is, the Colonials, & later the US were complacent in the existence of slavery.

To blame the CSA, & only the Southern States is disingenuous. Plenty of folks were complacent as long as they shared in the profits.
 

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#35
Were those states part of the US..? Asking for a friend.

Nice attempt (as I pointed out earlier), to only blame one section for the sin. Reality is, the Colonials, & later the US were complacent in the existence of slavery.

To blame the CSA, & only the Southern States is disingenuous. Plenty of folks were complacent as long as they shared in the profits.
Almost forgotten, lest we remind them, the profitable New England and New York triangular African slave trade and the subsidiary industry that supported it.
 

19thGeorgia

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#36
Almost forgotten, lest we remind them, the profitable New England and New York triangular African slave trade and the subsidiary industry that supported it.
It's estimated that about 12 million Africans were brought across the Atlantic as slaves.

*Not one was carried on a ship bearing a Confederate flag.
*Only 5-6% of the 12 million came to the Southeastern United States (or Colonies).
*The American involvement was carried on primarily by New England states.
 

unionblue

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#37
Were those states part of the US..? Asking for a friend.

Nice attempt (as I pointed out earlier), to only blame one section for the sin. Reality is, the Colonials, & later the US were complacent in the existence of slavery.

To blame the CSA, & only the Southern States is disingenuous. Plenty of folks were complacent as long as they shared in the profits.
Almost forgotten, lest we remind them, the profitable New England and New York triangular African slave trade and the subsidiary industry that supported it.
Gentlemen,

I have stated this before, but I'll repeat it here so none mistake my words.

Slavery is a national sin. The carriers and the buyers have answered for that sin and the succeeding generations still wrestle with that sin.

But it all my research, in all my reading, I have never, ever, seen an account of a Yankee slave ship captain ever hold a pistol to a Charleston slave buyers head in order for him to sell his cargo.

I get the idea that we want to share this sin, that we want to expunge it from our history and our ancestors. Truth is, we're stuck with history and an added truth is we are just now hearing more detail and frustrations of the impact of slavery on our modern lives.

In truth, the Civil War can still be lost, but not on a battlefield, but in denial and forced forgetfulness.

Blame one section? How about learning from that section that fought to keep it, expand it, even force it upon a nation trying, however late and slowly, was trying to deal with it. No, it wasn't perfect, nor was it it's original intent, but it cannot be ignored, one side fought to keep it and one side finally got rid of it.

The section you try to defend and excuse, while pointing (rightly) at others who profited from their desire to keep, had the biggest interest and desire to keep it. It simply can't be denied.

I don't expect attitudes to change, but I do know distractions will not change history, perhaps only add to the lessons learned.

But we have to learn all the lesson and not forget how much it costs us as a people to learn them.

Unionblue
 
#38
Were those states part of the US..? Asking for a friend.
Tell your friend yes the states were part of the U.S. but every ante-bellum attempt to outlaw slavery or to prevent its expansion was fought tooth and nail by the Southern states.

Nice attempt (as I pointed out earlier), to only blame one section for the sin. Reality is, the Colonials, & later the US were complacent in the existence of slavery. To blame the CSA, & only the Southern States is disingenuous. Plenty of folks were complacent as long as they shared in the profits.
No attempt on my part to lay blame on any specific part of the ante-bellum U.S when I wrote that "Slavery was not because of U.S. law; it was because of state laws -- 'state's rights' that prohibited the Federal government from interference." If you find my response of the 4 year long Confederacy's birth and death as a reason that it is disdained by many folks, to be disingenuous, then I believe that's your problem and not mine.
 

Viper21

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#39
It's estimated that about 12 million Africans were brought across the Atlantic as slaves.

*Not one was carried on a ship bearing a Confederate flag.
*Only 5-6% of the 12 million came to the Southeastern United States (or Colonies).
*The American involvement was carried on primarily by New England states.
I have posted the numbers previously. Less than 400,000 of the 12+ million came to America (Colonies & later US).
 

unionblue

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#40
It's estimated that about 12 million Africans were brought across the Atlantic as slaves.

*Not one was carried on a ship bearing a Confederate flag.

No Yankee slave ship captain ever held a gun to a Southern slave buyer's head in order to sell his human cargo.

*Only 5-6% of the 12 million came to the Southeastern United States (or Colonies).

Please convert those percentages into the actual number of human beings, please.

*The American involvement was carried on primarily by New England states.
Correct. But a couple of questions, please. Who is the more guilty, the drug cartel that sends product to a country, or the pusher, who buys the product and then sells it to the people of that country?

How many slaves were returned from the South to Africa?

Unionblue
 
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