Restricted Confederate Flag Returning to South Carolina Statehouse

Viper21

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The South Carolina Secessionist Party that's hosting this event is one of the more shouty, belligerent, spittle-flecked heritage groups out there, and a perfect example of how Confederate heritage stuff is sometimes inextricably intertwined with present-day politics. Wherever one falls on the issue of monuments, these are folks to steer clear of.
Sounds very much like the peeps we see protesting nearly daily, all over the country, on various issues, plenty of which relate to the time period we favor here.

I know nothing about the SCSP. Never even heard of em before. Only what I've read on this post. Because of my ignorance on this group, I do not have an opinion on them. However, I do support their raising of the flag, in protest to it's removal.

It IS possible to support an action, without supporting the person or people committing said action.
 

CCMDCSA

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There’s a difference between “the people of South Carolina” and a bunch of neo secessionist screwballs from South Carolina. Edited.
As I've stated already I'm not familiar with that particular group and what they stand for but in the article the SCV I believe was mentioned that is an organization I am familiar with and support dont forget many people in south carolina during the original fight to remove the flag opposed it
Edited.
 

WJC

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This thread has the potential for generating strong emotional responses.
Please stay on topic and respect the opinions of others. Do not allow this thread to deteriorate into a personal argument. If you can't contribute to a civil discussion, don't post here!
 

bdtex

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MattL

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My assessment of the South Carolina Secessionist Party (No. 4 above) is based on the last couple of years' worth of reading their blog- and Facebook posts. They really are the sort of reactionaries that bring discredit to the causes they claim to promote.

And yes, there absolutely are loony folks on the left, too. No argument from me on that point.

Agreed. Whoever you are this very specific group (and only a small subset of the greater cluster of people and groups who may overlap) is highly questionable and I recommend others take anything they say or do with a grain of salt. Don't take our words for it, do your research yourself. There are like groups and sub-groups on the other end of the spectrum I avoid for the same reason.

This is the same group I previously found plagiarizing an image on their website:
https://civilwartalk.com/threads/co...in-south-carolina.133366/page-13#post-1523642

Which was probably selected since it shows a lot of young "hip" looking people of mixed races, turns out it was from an event on the complete opposite side of the spectrum lol. Back then I contacted the people who produced the image, I think they decided it wasn't worth their trouble to pursue anything (the impression I got from our conversation, though they found it interesting as well).

Likewise their site is still full of stock photos, again of "hip" looking young people of mixed races.

These are the sorts of things you normally see in scam site etc. If they were truly proud of their heritage they would be proud of their actual members and be showing images of them rather than plagiarizing people on the other side and choosing many stock photos rather than those members.

There are people proud of their heritage. I'm proud of my Confederate heritage. Then there are people stuck in the past, not exclusive to anything in modern politics, just people in general.
 

byron ed

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...It IS possible to support an action, without supporting the person or people committing said action.
One can't support an action without supporting the person or persons committing said action.
Pertinence to CW: In Antebellum times, folks supporting the actions of the Abolitionists and Fire-Eaters supported Abolitionists and Fire-Eaters, yet by so many accounts Abolitionists and Fire-Eaters were not well-liked.
Edited.
 

byron ed

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...I'm proud of my Confederate heritage.

Never understood exactly what that means. The best way I have to understand it is "Proud of the Southern citizen soldiers and civilians for their brave prevail under harsh circumstances." The problem is that I can't avoid that it also literally means "proud of the Confederacy" which has to mean proud of slavery; the primary tenant of the Confederacy and that which defined it, and without which there would not have been a need to form a Confederacy. I'm avoiding thinking that anyone today feels that slavery should have won out ...that today they'd like to be able to own a person.

That's too ugly. So in optimism I'll stick with being proud of Confederate heritage meaning "Proud of the Southern citizen soldiers and civilians for their brave prevail under harsh circumstances" (to note that's limited to Southern citizens, as the non-citizen Southerners certainly wouldn't be included).

I would go with proud of Confederate heritage meaning "Proud of those for standing up for their rights of self-government in the face of overbearing Federal imposition" if it wasn't for the fact that cause seems so trifling by comparison to maintaining chattel slavery. There were no Southern citizens starving and groveling in the street because of Federal imposition, tariffs or whatever.

But I'm open for explanations. Exactly what does it mean to say "I'm proud of my Confederate heritage," and more importantly, what doesn't it mean?
 
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Viper21

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One can't support an action without supporting the person or persons committing said action.
I support everybody's freedom of speech. I don't support many folks exercising said freedom, & adamantly disagree with a lot of them.
I support everybody's right to protest something they disagree with. I despise lots of these folks, & don't support them or their cause at all.
Edited.
 

CSA Today

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Never understood exactly what that means. The best way I have to understand it is "Proud of the Southern citizen soldiers and civilians for their brave prevail under harsh circumstances." The problem is that I can't avoid that it also literally means "proud of the Confederacy" which has to mean proud of slavery; the primary tenant of the Confederacy and that which defined it, and without which there would not have been a need to form a Confederacy. I'm avoiding thinking that anyone today feels that slavery should have won out ...that today they'd like to be able to own a person.

That's too ugly. So in optimism I'll stick with being proud of Confederate heritage meaning "Proud of the Southern citizen soldiers and civilians for their brave prevail under harsh circumstances" (to note that's limited to Southern citizens, as the non-citizen Southerners certainly wouldn't be included).

I would go with proud of Confederate heritage meaning "Proud of those for standing up for their rights of self-government in the face of overbearing Federal imposition" if it wasn't for the fact that cause seems so trifling by comparison to maintaining chattel slavery. There were no Southern citizens starving and groveling in the street because of Federal imposition, tariffs or whatever.

But I'm open for explanations. Exactly what does it mean to say "I'm proud of my Confederate heritage," and more importantly, what doesn't it mean?

For me, it's pride in my Confederate heritage and not like those that can't claim it.
 

byron ed

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For me, it's pride in my Confederate heritage and not like those that can't claim it.

As one who can't claim it, that's my whole question. How can one can be proud of a heritage primarily built on slavery, when I know most legacy Confederates aren't actually for slavery.

"Pride in my Confederate heritage" just doesn't explain enough. It implies everything about the Confederacy is to be proud of, including slavery, ask no questions. Explain.
 
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MattL

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Never understood exactly what that means. The best way I have to understand it is "Proud of the Southern citizen soldiers and civilians for their brave prevail under harsh circumstances." The problem is that I can't avoid that it also literally means "proud of the Confederacy" which has to mean proud of slavery; the primary tenant of the Confederacy and that which defined it, and without which there would not have been a need to form a Confederacy. I'm avoiding thinking that anyone today feels that slavery should have won out ...that today they'd like to be able to own a person.

That's too ugly. So in optimism I'll stick with being proud of Confederate heritage meaning "Proud of the Southern citizen soldiers and civilians for their brave prevail under harsh circumstances" (to note that's limited to Southern citizens, as the non-citizen Southerners certainly wouldn't be included).

I would go with proud of Confederate heritage meaning "Proud of those for standing up for their rights of self-government in the face of overbearing Federal imposition" if it wasn't for the fact that cause seems so trifling by comparison to maintaining chattel slavery. There were no Southern citizens starving and groveling in the street because of Federal imposition, tariffs or whatever.

But I'm open for explanations. Exactly what does it mean to say "I'm proud of my Confederate heritage," and more importantly, what doesn't it mean?

A perfectly good question. Honestly the answer probably differs per person, no matter the target of such pride, so I can only answer for myself.

I hold a very specific set of views on being proud and ashamed of ancestors and heritage. I feel it's hypocritical to only be willing to apply one. Often times I see people were perfectly fine being proud of say an American Revolution ancestor, or maybe a father or grandfather that served in WWII (both apply to myself). They have no problem recognizing the difference between being proud of an ancestor's actions and clearly it not being any sort of pride in anything you yourself have done. Instead when the idea comes up of feeling shame for an ancestors perceived bad actions they often lose the ability to distinguish such things.

Personally I feel this is hypocritical and use to do it myself. I can feel pride and shame for the actions of my ancestors and neither has anything to dow with anything I've done or any pride or shame in myself. If I'm willing to feel one then I'm a hypocrite if I don't consider the other, I'm simply cherry picking what makes me feel good. The reverse situation I outlined is equally important to me though too. If I find plenty of things to be ashamed of in my ancestry/heritage then I must also be willing to put the same effort to be proud of the good things.

That's a bit long but I think it's important to know where I'm coming from when I say something like having pride in my Confederate ancestry.

I'll also add the context that I grew up basically with no family heritage at all, anywhere. I was born and raised in Arizona and my sister and I were the first generation of my family to be so. Only met my grandparents a handful of time for the most part (with both of my grandfathers dying when I was relatively young), and knew some 1st cousins but really only met any relations beyond that once or twice. I was raised almost knowing nothing. I knew my father was born in California and my mother was raised in New Mexico. Later I found my mother was born in Texas (her family moved a few miles from the Texas border into New Mexico when she was young) and though my dad was born in California his father was born in Arkansas and mother in Kansas. The majority of my ancestry is colonial Southern ancestry (with a couple deep North lines too if you go back far enough, but through western jumps) where I have ancestors who resided in every single Southern State and generations born in all Southern States but two. I have 5 direct ancestors who fought for the Confederacy and 5 direct ancestors who fought for the Union (they were in more western places like Missouri, Illinois, etc), my ancestry is here. One, my profile pic, was conscripted by force in Arkansas, left alleging being sick and joined the Union (so you might argue I have 6 in the Confederacy vs 5 in the Union if you double count him, though I typically count him as Union since that's what he chose).

I may be a Westerner (South Westerner to be more precise I guess) but I have as much Southern heritage as anyone. Thomas Jefferson was a 1st cousin, Samuel Houston was a 2nd cousin, Johnny Cash is a cousin. Some ancestors were wealthy slave owning southern planters (at least two owned around 70-80 slaves), many were small scale back country farmers in places like the South Carolina back country, Northern Georgia hills, Arkansas Ozarks, all over Virginia, etc. All just me pointing out that I have as much of a claim to Southern heritage as anyone even though I am not Southern myself.

So to answer your actual question, what does being proud of my Confederate ancestry mean to me? Well along the lines of what you already sort of identified in your hypotheticals. I am proud of the 5 that fought for their Nation and possibly their beliefs including the one that died. One enlisted early in the war before conscription in July of 1861. He fought at Gettysburg where in a single day his regiment suffered about 65% casualties, though he survived. He died at Cold Harbor on June 1 1864. Another ancestor served about the same time, he enlisted in an Alabama cavalry unit in 1862 and served until about a month after the surrender at Appomattox when he finally laid down arms.

I'm not sure what they individually believed, though they certainly believed in something and fought for it. I have the utmost respect and pride in that action for them.

I also respect the boldness of the attempted Confederacy. I'm not a fan of people who paint Lincoln or the US as more of an aggressor or initiator in events than the facts warrant. The Confederacy was bold and strong, they knew they had to prove they could back up their claims with force and military might. There's certainly some pride in that.

At the same time I have shame for the ultimate reason and goal of such efforts, to protect and expand slavery. Of putting their interests so high to result in so much pain, suffering, and such a cost that the war eventually had. For the ancestors of mine that did in fact own slaves.
 
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As one who can't claim it, that's my whole question. How can one be proud of a heritage primarily built on slavery, when I know most legacy Confederates aren't actually for slavery.

"Pride in my Confederate heritage" doesn't explain enough. It implies everything about the Confederacy is to be proud of, including slavery, asks no questions. Explain.

Exactly-- I asked the question in another thread- how many soldiers could describe why they were fighting and were the reasons entirely in line with what politicians and themes suggest? How many went to fight because their family did? Or any other of the factionalized reasons for going to war?
 
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