Confederate 1st Lt William Thomas Jones

Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Location
Kingsport, Tennessee
I wanted to learn more about him, so I found another article and provided a link above. Enlisting as a black was not legal.
Do you have a source for such a law? I've never seen one. The rank & file elected him 3rd Lieutenant. Do you really believe they thought he was white? Why didn't Union records describe him as white?
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2010
Location
Kingsport, Tennessee
I wanted to learn more about him, so I found another article and provided a link above. Enlisting as a black was not legal.

This probably belongs on another thread. I've been through this hullabaloo before. Really not interested in doing it anymore. I'll not change your mind, you definitely can't change mine. Here are some actual laws. I'd guess basically the same applied to teamsters & laborers as well. Now I'm anxious to see the law that forbade the enlistment of persons of color, as you say, Enlisting as a black was not legal.

Passed at the First Session of the First Confederate Congress; 1862: CHAP. LXIV.–A Bill [An Act] for the enlistment of Cooks in the Army. April 21, 1862. Enlistment of Cooks in the Army. Their duties. The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That hereafter it shall be the duty of the Captain or Commanding Officer of his company to enlist four Cooks for the use of his company, whose duty it shall be to cook for such company–taking charge of the supplies, utensils and other things furnished therefor, and safely keep the same, subject to such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the War Department or the Colonel of the Regiment to which such company may be attached: May be white or black, free or slave persons. Proviso. Pay and allowances. [SEC. 2.] Be it further enacted, That the Cooks so directed to be enlisted, may be white or black, free or slave persons; Provided, however, That no slave shall be so enlisted, without the written consent of his owner. And such Cooks shall be enlisted as such only, and put on the muster-roll and paid at the time and place the company may or shall be paid off, twenty dollars per month to the Chief or Head Cook, Page 49 and fifteen dollars per month for each of the Assistant Cooks, together with the same allowance for clothing, or the same commutation therefor that may be allowed to the rank and file of the company. .........................................................................................

CHAP. XXIX.–An Act for the payment of musicians in the army not regularly enlisted. April 15, 1862. Pay of colored persons employed as musicians. Proviso. The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That whenever colored persons are employed as musicians in any Regiment or Company, they shall be entitled to the same pay now allowed by law to musicians regularly enlisted: Provided, That no such persons shall be so employed except by the consent of the commanding officer of the Brigade to which said Regiments or Companies may belong.
 

DanSBHawk

1st Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
This probably belongs on another thread. I've been through this hullabaloo before. Really not interested in doing it anymore. I'll not change your mind, you definitely can't change mine. Here are some actual laws. I'd guess basically the same applied to teamsters & laborers as well. Now I'm anxious to see the law that forbade the enlistment of persons of color, as you say, Enlisting as a black was not legal.

Passed at the First Session of the First Confederate Congress; 1862: CHAP. LXIV.–A Bill [An Act] for the enlistment of Cooks in the Army. April 21, 1862. Enlistment of Cooks in the Army. Their duties. The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That hereafter it shall be the duty of the Captain or Commanding Officer of his company to enlist four Cooks for the use of his company, whose duty it shall be to cook for such company–taking charge of the supplies, utensils and other things furnished therefor, and safely keep the same, subject to such rules and regulations as may be prescribed by the War Department or the Colonel of the Regiment to which such company may be attached: May be white or black, free or slave persons. Proviso. Pay and allowances. [SEC. 2.] Be it further enacted, That the Cooks so directed to be enlisted, may be white or black, free or slave persons; Provided, however, That no slave shall be so enlisted, without the written consent of his owner. And such Cooks shall be enlisted as such only, and put on the muster-roll and paid at the time and place the company may or shall be paid off, twenty dollars per month to the Chief or Head Cook, Page 49 and fifteen dollars per month for each of the Assistant Cooks, together with the same allowance for clothing, or the same commutation therefor that may be allowed to the rank and file of the company. .........................................................................................

CHAP. XXIX.–An Act for the payment of musicians in the army not regularly enlisted. April 15, 1862. Pay of colored persons employed as musicians. Proviso. The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That whenever colored persons are employed as musicians in any Regiment or Company, they shall be entitled to the same pay now allowed by law to musicians regularly enlisted: Provided, That no such persons shall be so employed except by the consent of the commanding officer of the Brigade to which said Regiments or Companies may belong.
You're right. Not the right thread or forum for this.

If he had been recognized as black by the mustering officers, he could not have enlisted as a confederate soldier, and this thread is about black soldiers.
 

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
Interesting story, but he was apparently a mulatto who passed himself off as white to enlist.

https://www.thepilot.com/news/the-t...cle_4f368b1f-3edd-5333-9ebb-cb64b742439c.html

I wanted to learn more about him, so I found another article and provided a link above. Enlisting as a black was not legal.
The article you posted doesn't say, "who passed himself off as white to enlist." Or anything even close to such. The only reference to to his enlistment is: Jones and many workers left to serve in the Confederate Army. Captured, they were interned at Fort Delaware.
 

DanSBHawk

1st Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
The article you posted doesn't say, "who passed himself off as white to enlist." Or anything even close to such. The only reference to to his enlistment is: Jones and many workers left to serve in the Confederate Army. Captured, they were interned at Fort Delaware.
As a white was the only way he could have enlisted as a confederate soldier.

Lutz, the confederate "black soldier" posted earlier in the thread by Anderson was also a mulatto who claimed to be white.
 

Patrick H

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Mar 7, 2014
A picture but no info???

Kevin Dally
Just saw this inquiry. John Noland was a volunteer who rode as a scout for Quantrill. He is most likely the "mulatto" mentioned in the 1860 census of Asbury Noland's farm. There were two white Noland brothers who also rode with Quantrill. John Noland was likely their half brother or their cousin. In any event, after the Noland farm was raided by Jayhawkers, the boys all rode off to join Q. and fight back. I have seen a number of photos of John, but never one where you can see firearms on his person. The full length version of the photo posted earlier clearly shows bulges under his jacket which are probably caused by revolvers. He is mentioned in John McCorckle's memoir as having been in the thick of things when Q. tried to raid the courthouse at Lamar, Missouri. He was also a guest at several Quantrill raider reunions and his pictured with his comrades. He was a minor celebrity around Kansas City and Independence long after the war, as were the other surviving Q. men. William Elsey Connelley tried to interview Noland for his book about Quantrill, but Noland refused to discuss the Lawrence raid, and of course Connelley was looking for negative testimony. Noland told him he went to Lawrence prior to the raid to scout the place, determine troop strength among the militia, etc. But he insisted ever afterward that by the time he got back to Q.'s meeting place, the raiders had already departed for Kansas. Personally, I have a hunch that Noland was being a prudent and cautious man. I suspect he was along on the raid. He seems to have been well liked and respected by the other raiders, and when he died all of his pallbearers were former comrades--white men, which was perhaps a bit remarkable in that era. He is buried in Independence in the same cemetery as George Todd (a Q. man who later led his own band) and I have visited his grave. The inscription on the back of his stone says: "A man among men," which is apparently something his former comrades used to say about him.
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
He was simply a black in the Confederate ranks, not a soldier. Look at the Confederate enlistment laws, they speak for themselves!

Kevin Dally
The enlistment laws of a country you folks claim never existed. Interesting twist of logic there. I suppose that means you concede the existence of the CSA as a legitimate government capable of making laws then?
 

Quaama

Sergeant
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Location
Port Macquarie, Australia
I do not see why what someone claimed at the time (e.g. a black man claiming to be white) would prohibit them from being recognised as who they were. Plenty of people at the time lied about themselves to enlist as soldiers (mostly about age but also colour and even gender). I do not see that their ability to circumvent any laws or attitudes that prohibited them joining would exclude them from now being recognised for their service.
 

DanSBHawk

1st Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
I do not see why what someone claimed at the time (e.g. a black man claiming to be white) would prohibit them from being recognised as who they were. Plenty of people at the time lied about themselves to enlist as soldiers (mostly about age but also colour and even gender). I do not see that their ability to circumvent any laws or attitudes that prohibited them joining would exclude them from now being recognised for their service.
I agree that they should be recognized as confederates. White confederates.

If they were able to avoid the stigma and oppression of being black in the south, and enjoyed a status of "white" in southern society due to the light color of their skin, then I think holding them up as a token representation of a black confederate is misleading. And also very insulting to all the southern blacks that didn't have the option, and privileges, of passing as white in society.
 

Viper21

Brigadier General
Moderator
Silver Patron
Joined
Jul 4, 2016
Location
Rockbridge County, Virginia
I agree that they should be recognized as confederates. White confederates.

If they were able to avoid the stigma and oppression of being black in the south, and enjoyed a status of "white" in southern society due to the light color of their skin, then I think holding them up as a token representation of a black confederate is misleading. And also very insulting to all the southern blacks that didn't have the option, and privileges, of passing as white in society.
More opinion with no evidence to back up said opinion. The only source you've provided in this thread, specifically doesn't support your opinion. You've presented nothing claiming Mr Jones passed as being white, other than your personal opinion.

The often charged "racist Southerners" didn't know his Mother was Black..? C'mon man. People knew who each other were, a LOT more in the antebellum South, than they do today. Units were generally comprised from the same areas, & most guys knew who was who.

I keep hearing another ridiculous claim over & over.... "The Confederate Government didn't allow... blah, blah..." Yeah, because laws are ALWAYS followed. :O o: Selective enforcement of federal law, or even state laws, is not a new thing.
 

Quaama

Sergeant
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Location
Port Macquarie, Australia
No, Jones was not white and you only need look at the links you provided in the OP of this 'new' thread to see the truth of it.

The first link says:
"William became one of approximately 184 "free persons of color" in Moore County, NC, according to the 1860 census. At the the beginning of the Civil War, William along with a handful of other "Free Men of Color".
The color being referred to is not 'white'.
The second link you provided says:
"Though he was an African-American described in census records as "a mulatto gentleman" and a former slave, Jones nevertheless became a leading businessman ...".

He certainly was not enjoying "a status of 'white' in southern society" as he was not recognised as such in the 1860 census. Importantly, as said by @Viper21 "People knew who each other were" and "most guys knew who was who". Jones was simply (although probably not easily) able to circumvent laws and attitudes that existed at the time.
[It reminds me of a committed Aboriginal activist in Australia (Michael Mansell who was very pale-skinned) who said "Skin colour has nothing to do with it" in explaining how he had suffered from discrimination because everyone in his town knew he was black and treated him the same manner as any other black person who had much darker skin than he did.]
 

DanSBHawk

1st Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
More opinion with no evidence to back up said opinion. The only source you've provided in this thread, specifically doesn't support your opinion. You've presented nothing claiming Mr Jones passed as being white, other than your personal opinion.

The often charged "racist Southerners" didn't know his Mother was Black..? C'mon man. People knew who each other were, a LOT more in the antebellum South, than they do today. Units were generally comprised from the same areas, & most guys knew who was who.

I keep hearing another ridiculous claim over & over.... "The Confederate Government didn't allow... blah, blah..." Yeah, because laws are ALWAYS followed. :O o: Selective enforcement of federal law, or even state laws, is not a new thing.
Then why is it that the only examples of regularly enlisted black confederates are mulattoes who could pass as white?

The article I linked shows that the community seemed uncertain as to his race.
 

DanSBHawk

1st Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
No, Jones was not white and you only need look at the links you provided in the OP of this 'new' thread to see the truth of it.

The first link says:
"William became one of approximately 184 "free persons of color" in Moore County, NC, according to the 1860 census. At the the beginning of the Civil War, William along with a handful of other "Free Men of Color".
The color being referred to is not 'white'.
The second link you provided says:
"Though he was an African-American described in census records as "a mulatto gentleman" and a former slave, Jones nevertheless became a leading businessman ...".

He certainly was not enjoying "a status of 'white' in southern society" as he was not recognised as such in the 1860 census. Importantly, as said by @Viper21 "People knew who each other were" and "most guys knew who was who". Jones was simply (although probably not easily) able to circumvent laws and attitudes that existed at the time.
[It reminds me of a committed Aboriginal activist in Australia (Michael Mansell who was very pale-skinned) who said "Skin colour has nothing to do with it" in explaining how he had suffered from discrimination because everyone in his town knew he was black and treated him the same manner as any other black person who had much darker skin than he did.]
I know what the link said. It said there were suspicions in the community as to his race.

Not only did he enlist in the confederate army as a white, according to the linked article he married a white woman which was also illegal at the time.
 

DanSBHawk

1st Lieutenant
Joined
May 8, 2015
Location
Wisconsin
I just checked the 1870 census, and Jones and his wife are listed as White. Obviously, he was able to pass as white in the community.

William T Jones.png
 

Quaama

Sergeant
Joined
Sep 13, 2020
Location
Port Macquarie, Australia
I just checked the 1870 census, and Jones and his wife are listed as White. Obviously, he was able to pass as white in the community.

View attachment 377386

Good research.

Do you have an image of the 1860 census? [The first link in the OP is from a reliable website and clearly stated "William became one of approximately 184 "free persons of color" in Moore County, NC, according to the 1860 census." The second link, on several occassions, refers to Williams as "African-American" or as a "black man".]
 
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