Compare and contrast Counter guerrilla operations Union vs Confederate

Lefty, what time zone do live in? Where did I say that only pro-Confederate civilians lived in Missouri? When are you going to quit trying to put words in my mouth? Why do you misquote me?
Relax it's just a friendly question. It would be a fascinating and most logical question to know what guerrilla war civilians did not suffer in anywhere in the world.
Leftyhunter
 
Actually my response had to do with the killing of another Confederate guerrilla who' s last name was Wilson and was the inspiration for the lead character in the Movie " the outlaw Josie Wales". Also I quoted @Cavalry Charger from an exact well regarded source. If you have an issue with that source that is a seperate matter but I didn'have it wrong".
Thanks for being my spokesmen but I think I can do it myself.
Leftyhunter

In your post, #621, which is what I replied to, you were responding to a comment that Borderruffian made about Jim Anderson. No other person was named in that post by Borderruffian or you.

I realize that I did make an error regarding the leadership of the Redlegs. As you said, George Hoyt was the original leader. It was later when the 15th KS Cav. Was formed that Jennison commanded George Hoyt in that unit. My bad.

And believe me Lefty, I have no intentions of speaking for you.
 
Only Pro Confederate civilians in Missouri?
Leftyhunter
Let me state this once again. Missouri had voted to stay within the Union by a majority in 61 after Lexington Price and the MSG had retreated southwest to near the Springfield area, it wasn't until the Union forces were drwn into the interior by orders of the UNion CG that Prices Bridge Burners went to work in North Mo along with recruiting officers such as Porter Poindexter , and others who were termed guerillas by the Union command when they were in fact regularly commissioned officers in the CSA.

Guerilla warfare only got bad in response to many Union units treating all civilians as secesh and the EMM and PEMM settling local scores under the cover of blue as did some MSM units. Thereby converting Conditional Unionists to the grey .

"THe enemy of my enemy is my friend::
 
The guerrilla shirt that Bill Anderson was wearing at his time of death-I told you about that, how the flowers on the shirt represented a language, and how Bloody Bill was deeply loved by someone as represented by that embroidery.
Hi @Booner , I should have checked...I knew one of you boys told me about it. It certainly added another dimension to the movie when I watched it, and I assumed Hollywood was playing somewhat fast and loose with the story, too :wink: I guess that's to be expected. Thanks for your very thorough response in reply.
 
Let me state this once again. Missouri had voted to stay within the Union by a majority in 61 after Lexington Price and the MSG had retreated southwest to near the Springfield area, it wasn't until the Union forces were drwn into the interior by orders of the UNion CG that Prices Bridge Burners went to work in North Mo along with recruiting officers such as Porter Poindexter , and others who were termed guerillas by the Union command when they were in fact regularly commissioned officers in the CSA.

Guerilla warfare only got bad in response to many Union units treating all civilians as secesh and the EMM and PEMM settling local scores under the cover of blue as did some MSM units. Thereby converting Conditional Unionists to the grey .

"THe enemy of my enemy is my friend::
Bridge burning is classical guerrilla warfare if carried out by non uniformed persons. I have stated many times that Union forces in Missouri did not fight a textbook perfect war the Kansas units in particular.
Despite that the U.S. Army did restudy their
experiance in Missouri ( such has contacting Bruce Nickols and Mark Mowars)
in order to relearn lessons despite their experiance in more recent COIN conflicts plus their observation of allied COIN observations.
Lots of good and bad lessons to be learned.
Leftyhunter
 
@leftyhunter

FICKLE ALLIES: REGULAR AND IRREGULAR CONFEDERATE FORCES IN MISSOURI DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by Major Scott D. Welborn / USMC

"Today’s operational environment finds irregular warfare alive and well. Irregular forces’ organization, size, composition, and depth of support vary greatly on the battlefield. These dynamics correspondingly impact their overall influence and effect on a given conflict, as irregulars may serve as a mere harassment or weigh heavily on the final results. The state of Missouri and the surrounding region were no strangers to guerrilla and irregular warfare during the American Civil War. Pre-existing conflict and competing sentiments for secession or neutrality laid the roots for a violent struggle to determine the fate of Missouri as a Union or Confederate state. Pro-Confederate Missourians formed irregular organizations to fight for a secessionist Missouri. These forces associated with the Confederate government and army to pursue common objectives; however, the relationships between these organizations were largely ill-defined.

Two predominant pro-Confederate organizations, the Missouri State Guard (MSG) and William Quantrill’s band of guerrillas, approached irregular warfare in and around Missouri with very different methods and tactics. The operational histories of the MSG and Quantrill’s band reveal instances of coordinated operations with the conventional army/ government and unilateral activities alike. Through a detailed study of these forces and the larger operational context for the Confederacy, this monograph finds that there was no consistent, cohesive relationship between regular and irregular forces, and that this lack of structure impaired operational planning and effectiveness. The paper concludes by looking at the relevance to the contemporary "

HTH,
USS ALASKA
 

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@leftyhunter

FICKLE ALLIES: REGULAR AND IRREGULAR CONFEDERATE FORCES IN MISSOURI DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by Major Scott D. Welborn / USMC

"Today’s operational environment finds irregular warfare alive and well. Irregular forces’ organization, size, composition, and depth of support vary greatly on the battlefield. These dynamics correspondingly impact their overall influence and effect on a given conflict, as irregulars may serve as a mere harassment or weigh heavily on the final results. The state of Missouri and the surrounding region were no strangers to guerrilla and irregular warfare during the American Civil War. Pre-existing conflict and competing sentiments for secession or neutrality laid the roots for a violent struggle to determine the fate of Missouri as a Union or Confederate state. Pro-Confederate Missourians formed irregular organizations to fight for a secessionist Missouri. These forces associated with the Confederate government and army to pursue common objectives; however, the relationships between these organizations were largely ill-defined.

Two predominant pro-Confederate organizations, the Missouri State Guard (MSG) and William Quantrill’s band of guerrillas, approached irregular warfare in and around Missouri with very different methods and tactics. The operational histories of the MSG and Quantrill’s band reveal instances of coordinated operations with the conventional army/ government and unilateral activities alike. Through a detailed study of these forces and the larger operational context for the Confederacy, this monograph finds that there was no consistent, cohesive relationship between regular and irregular forces, and that this lack of structure impaired operational planning and effectiveness. The paper concludes by looking at the relevance to the contemporary "

HTH,
USS ALASKA
I will read the pdf on my PC at home.
As far as I know it was not until WW2 that their was a serious attempt to coordinate irregular and conventional warfare. The British Special Operations Executive would be the first example of such an attempt followed by the Soviet High Command and the American Office of Strategic Services.
As I pointed out in my thread "Union vs CSA Guerrillas" various leaders on both sides did indeed recognize the value of coordinating conventional and irregular operations.
It would not be until WW2 at least for the Americans to take a more widespread coordinated effort in this regard.
Leftyhunter
 
@leftyhunter

FICKLE ALLIES: REGULAR AND IRREGULAR CONFEDERATE FORCES IN MISSOURI DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by Major Scott D. Welborn / USMC

"Today’s operational environment finds irregular warfare alive and well. Irregular forces’ organization, size, composition, and depth of support vary greatly on the battlefield. These dynamics correspondingly impact their overall influence and effect on a given conflict, as irregulars may serve as a mere harassment or weigh heavily on the final results. The state of Missouri and the surrounding region were no strangers to guerrilla and irregular warfare during the American Civil War. Pre-existing conflict and competing sentiments for secession or neutrality laid the roots for a violent struggle to determine the fate of Missouri as a Union or Confederate state. Pro-Confederate Missourians formed irregular organizations to fight for a secessionist Missouri. These forces associated with the Confederate government and army to pursue common objectives; however, the relationships between these organizations were largely ill-defined.

Two predominant pro-Confederate organizations, the Missouri State Guard (MSG) and William Quantrill’s band of guerrillas, approached irregular warfare in and around Missouri with very different methods and tactics. The operational histories of the MSG and Quantrill’s band reveal instances of coordinated operations with the conventional army/ government and unilateral activities alike. Through a detailed study of these forces and the larger operational context for the Confederacy, this monograph finds that there was no consistent, cohesive relationship between regular and irregular forces, and that this lack of structure impaired operational planning and effectiveness. The paper concludes by looking at the relevance to the contemporary "

HTH,
USS ALASKA
In what way does the Missouri State Guard qualify as a guerrilla force? They apoear per the pdf to be a conventional military force that was absorbed into the Confederate Army.
Leftyhunter
 
It would not be until WW2 at least for the Americans to take a more widespread coordinated effort in this regard.
Lefty, this is not accurate. Several of Quantrill's lieutenants and their bands coordinated operations very closely with Price during his expedition of 1864. In fact, that's when George Todd was killed. Prior to that joint effort, some of Quantrill's men did coordinated scouting for Shelby.

In what way does the Missouri State Guard qualify as a guerrilla force? They apoear per the pdf to be a conventional military force that was absorbed into the Confederate Army.
You are essentially correct on this one, but not with every detail. Some of the MSG were sworn into regular Confederate service. Many didn't want to do that because they were certain it would mean service in another state and they simply went back home. Some (Frank James, John McCorckle and I believe even Quantrill himself are good examples) went to the bush to avoid out of state service or service in the Enrolled Missouri Militia.
 
Lefty, this is not accurate. Several of Quantrill's lieutenants and their bands coordinated operations very closely with Price during his expedition of 1864. In fact, that's when George Todd was killed. Prior to that joint effort, some of Quantrill's men did coordinated scouting for Shelby.


You are essentially correct on this one, but not with every detail. Some of the MSG were sworn into regular Confederate service. Many didn't want to do that because they were certain it would mean service in another state and they simply went back home. Some (Frank James, John McCorckle and I believe even Quantrill himself are good examples) went to the bush to avoid out of state service or service in the Enrolled Missouri Militia.
By well coordinated I mean an offical national agency that coordinates irregular warfare with regular warfare. I pointed out local coordination in my thread "Union vs CSA Guerrillas" but that is not even close to a national level agency. Both the Special Operations Executive and the Office of Strategic Services reported respectively to Churchill and FDR and of course latter to their successors. Lincoln and Davis had nothing like it.
I am right the MSG was absorbed by the Confederate Army. Absolutely many members did not wish to serve out of state. Some became Bushwackers , some became Paw Paw milita , and it's quite possible some either just moved out west or tried to stay out of the Civil War and remain in Missouri.
Leftyhunter
 
@leftyhunter

FICKLE ALLIES: REGULAR AND IRREGULAR CONFEDERATE FORCES IN MISSOURI DURING THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by Major Scott D. Welborn / USMC

"Today’s operational environment finds irregular warfare alive and well. Irregular forces’ organization, size, composition, and depth of support vary greatly on the battlefield. These dynamics correspondingly impact their overall influence and effect on a given conflict, as irregulars may serve as a mere harassment or weigh heavily on the final results. The state of Missouri and the surrounding region were no strangers to guerrilla and irregular warfare during the American Civil War. Pre-existing conflict and competing sentiments for secession or neutrality laid the roots for a violent struggle to determine the fate of Missouri as a Union or Confederate state. Pro-Confederate Missourians formed irregular organizations to fight for a secessionist Missouri. These forces associated with the Confederate government and army to pursue common objectives; however, the relationships between these organizations were largely ill-defined.

Two predominant pro-Confederate organizations, the Missouri State Guard (MSG) and William Quantrill’s band of guerrillas, approached irregular warfare in and around Missouri with very different methods and tactics. The operational histories of the MSG and Quantrill’s band reveal instances of coordinated operations with the conventional army/ government and unilateral activities alike. Through a detailed study of these forces and the larger operational context for the Confederacy, this monograph finds that there was no consistent, cohesive relationship between regular and irregular forces, and that this lack of structure impaired operational planning and effectiveness. The paper concludes by looking at the relevance to the contemporary "

HTH,
USS ALASKA
I just skimmed over the 67 pages of the pdf. It is a good overall view of the war in Mo. No doubt the author is correct in that the Union COIN war was not a model for how to conduct a successful COIN war. Has I have noted many times Union troops from Kn were counter productive. On the other hand as the author points out even before Lee surrendered the Confederate guerrillas were doing poorly by winter 1865. In four years the Union COIN forces were winning which is not bad by modern standards.
The author does discuss the "Son of Iraq " program in which various Sunni tribes turned on Al Quedea. However their is no political similarity to such an event in the ACW.
There is much for modern COIN militaries and police tolearn from the ACW and also hat mistakes not to make.
Leftyhunter
 
The Paw-Paw militias was arguably one of the most stupid COIN techniques used by the Union.
I will quote from the book "Jesse James last Rebel of the Civil war" T.J. Stiles vintagebooks.com
Starting on p.97 to 99
There was wide spread unrest among slaves in Clay and Platte County, Mo. Slaves were enthralled by reports of heavily armed men from Kn that would free them. Col James M. Moss ( not a US Army Col not clear how he got his rank) was an ally of Gov. Gamble and like him a conservative Whig.
Moss was upset with bandits from Kn and unrest among the slaves in Aug 1863. Moss was also upset with the EMM who he called "an armed mob". Moss formed the 81st and 82nd EMM. Both regiments were openly pro CSA and one of them chased out a Union officer recruiting black troops in Liberty,Mo.Only one company in Clay County headed by Captain John S. Thompson opposed the bushwackers . The other companies gave shelter to the bushwackers. Even Moss's own brother complained to Moss about the Paw-Paws. Due to Moss's political allies he was not censured for his activities.
Leftyhunter
 
In the book "Guerrillas,Unionists and Violence on the Confederate Home front" Edited by Daniel E. Sutherland The University of Arkansas Press B. Franklin Cooling has a chapter "A Peoples War: Partisan Conflict in Tennessee and Kentucky and he makes a lot of good points that should answer some frequently asked questions.
@Waterloo50 and others have asked about the various terms used in the irregular portion of the ACW.
Here is what Cooling says:""The partisan corps suggested a middle ground between the West Pointers war and the completely freewheeling guerrilla. Partisans could be a sort of auxiliary-a home based guard and recruiting pool-for the regular Confederate cavalry, especially as they passed through a locale on some special mission". Of course, the element of freebootery or brigandage that lurked beneath the veneer of this grassroots fervor. escaped many people in 1862"
Leftyhunter
 
Using my superduber advance research skills per the State Historical society of Missouri website your question ( I had a whole thread previously devoted to the same question you posed and the collective wisdom of the forum could not answer the very same question. Then I though hey I will see if I can email the SHMO but boom there it was!)
Over 109k men for the Union from Mo
over 30k men for the CSA
Yes major caveat not all soldiers from a Mo regiment are from Mo and by the same token Mo men joined out of state regiments.
shsmo.org/research/guides/civilwar/regiment.html

Leftyhunter
Here you go @Rebforever a non Wiki source to prove that most men from Mo did not fight for the Confederacy.
Leftyhunter
 
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Hi Waterloo50,
I just read the old post gazatte article. By no means where the Jesse Scouts even close to being guerrillas. Rowland and friends where formally enlisted soldiers that wore enemy uniforms in order to spy on the enemy. 80 years later the Wehrmacht would do the very same thing with their"Brandenburg Brigade". Today we would call the Jesse Scouts special forces.
A guerrilla is not a formally enlisted member of the armed forces . A guerrilla is native to a given area and does not receive for the most part pay and logistical support from an outside agency.
Here's where it gets into the grey zone. David "Tinker Dave" Beatty apparently per some evidence posted in my thread about him was commissioned a Captain per Maj. Gen. Burnside. After Beatty died years after the CW his widow did apply for a Union pension not sure if his widow received one. I am not sure his men were ever enlisted in the Union Army while serving under Beatty perhaps afterwards they were.
Newt Knight was never enlisted in the Union Army nor where his men . Knight did not receive a Union pension however he was appointed as a Deputy United States Marshal during Reconstruction.
Has I mention in my thread"Union vs CSA guerrilla " both sides did arm guerrillas and provide other logistical support on an occasional basis.
If a guerrilla does receive constant logistical support and guidance from an outside agency then he becomes a partisan such has Titos partisans after the allies captured the Island of Vis and where able to ship arms on a regular basis to Tito .
William Clark Quantril was a commissioned Captain but did not recieve pay or support while fighting in Mo. Perhaps he received some logistical support when his men did R&R during the winter in Sherman,Tx.
Leftyhunter
 
Quantril's Raiders and Guerrillas in Mo. Is what I mainly research. Blackwater creek runs through my property of 80 acres. This was a common meeting place for them. Quantril and Anderson along with their men met here before the Raid on Lawence. I would be very surprised to learn that there was any assistance in their winter in TX. It certainly isn't my understanding. I will be researching this now, I'm curious.
I wanted to ask if you or anyone might know how many, If any men from TX came back with them and joined in their fight?
 
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