Cleburne's Letter for Enlisting Blacks like the States are already doing.

Rebforever

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#1
P. R. Cleburne, major-general, commanding division

This was too much to post so I’ll put how to get to Cleburne’s letter
concerning enlistment of Blacks in the Confederate Army. Even though the States
Had already been enlisting Blacks.

[JANUARY 2, 1864.]
COMMANDING GENERAL, THE CORPS, DIVISION, BRIGADE, AND REGIMENTAL COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY OF TENNESSEE:


Begin Letter
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/110/0586

End of letter
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/110/0592
 

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Rebforever

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#2
""WAR DEPARTMENT, C. S. ARMY, ADJUTANT AND INSPECTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE,

Richmond, Va., March 15, 1865.

Majs. J. W. PEGRAM and THOMAS P. TURNER:

(Through General Ewell.)

SIRS: You are hereby authorized to raise a company or companies of negro soldiers under the provisions of the act of Congress approved March 13, 1865. When the requisite number shall have been recruited they will be mustered into the service for the war, and muster-rolls forwarded to this office. The companies when organized will be subject to the rules and regulations governing the Provisional Army of the Confederate States.

By command of the Secretary of War:

JOHN W. RIELY,

Assistant Adjutant-General.

https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/096/1318
 

John Hartwell

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#3
Curious that I don't see anything in Gen. Cleburne's letter about "like the States are already doing."

Very unsubtle, there.
sceptik1-1970e7b.jpg


There had been a few black militia companies in the South before the war. The CSA had rejected them. How many of those black militia companies were still in state service in January 1864?
 
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JPK Huson 1863

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#4
Well, if the order went out in March, 1865 it would have taken how long to get a black ' recruit ' to camp ( was it all the way in Texas? ), if slave holders could be induced to ' donate ' to the war. The holder had to shell out for the uniform too. Anyway, then how long in training and moving a unit to the war? April, 1865, they'd still have been convincing holders it was their duty to hand over enslaved to the government.

No snark here, just an unlikely prospect.
 
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#5
P. R. Cleburne, major-general, commanding division

This was too much to post so I’ll put how to get to Cleburne’s letter
concerning enlistment of Blacks in the Confederate Army. Even though the States
Had already been enlisting Blacks.

[JANUARY 2, 1864.]
COMMANDING GENERAL, THE CORPS, DIVISION, BRIGADE, AND REGIMENTAL COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY OF TENNESSEE:


Begin Letter
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/110/0586

End of letter
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/110/0592
What evidence that .Confederate state militas actually enlisted black men? When and where were such intergrated militas actually used in combat?
Leftyhunter
 

Rebforever

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#6
Curious that I don't see anything in Gen. Cleburne's letter about "like the States are already doing."

Very unsubtle, there. View attachment 204232

There had been a few black militia companies in the South before the war. The CSA had rejected them. How many of those black militia companies were still in state service in January 1864?
There are 2 websites at the bottom of my page that will answer your questions.
 

Rebforever

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#7
Well, if the order went out in March, 1865 it would have taken how long to get a black ' recruit ' to camp ( was it all the way in Texas? ), if slave holders could be induced to ' donate ' to the war. The holder had to shell out for the uniform too. Anyway, then how long in training and moving a unit to the war? April, 1865, they'd still have been convincing holders it was their duty to hand over enslaved to the government.

No snark here, just an unlikely prospect.
Point taken.
 

John Hartwell

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#8
There are 2 websites at the bottom of my page that will answer your questions.
There was only one question. And, giving me a 3600+ post reading assignment isn't helpful -- though it is no less than I should have expected. Doubtless buried in there somewhere there's something that can be contorted into an answer (maybe even a real answer!). But, life's too short for me to go digging after information you presumably already have at hand -- or should have, since you made the assertion in the first place.
 

Rebforever

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#10
GENERAL ORDERS,

ADJT. AND INSP. GENERAL'S OFFICE, No. 25.

Richmond, March 6, 1863.

I. The following act of Congress and regulations to enforce the same are published for the information of all persons concerned:

CHAP. LXII. -AN ACT to protect the rights of owners of slaves taken by or employed in the Army.

The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That every person connected with the Army or Navy of the Confederate States arresting or coming into possession of any slave, by capture from the enemy or otherwise than by lawful authority, shall immediately report the same to the commanding officer of the post, or brigade or station to which he may be attached. The said commanding officer shall, with as little delay as practicable, send the slaves so reported to the nearest depot described in the next section, with a register of the place and date of their arrest: Provided, however, That the said slaves or any of them may at once be delivered to their respective owners, if claim is made and established on satisfactory evidence.

SEC. 2. The Secretary of War shall establish depots for recaptured slaves at convenient places, not more than five in numbers, in each State, and all slaves captured in such State shall be kept in such depots. Public notice shall be given of the places so selected.

SEC. 3. Lists of the slaves in each of such depots showing the name and color of such slaves, the place and time of their arrest, and the names of their owners, as given by themselves, or otherwise ascertained, shall be regularly advertised in each State, in one or more newspapers of general circulation.

SEC. 4. While such slaves are in depot, they may be employed, under proper guard, on public works; but no slave shall be removed from the depot to which he is first carried for at least one month after the first advertisement of his being there, nor then, unless an exact register is made of the removal and due advertisement made in the newspapers as aforesaid.

SEC. 5. Free access shall be permitted to all persons desiring to inspect the said slaves for the purpose of identifying them and establishing ownership, and upon due proof they shall be immediately restored to the persons claiming them.

SECfurther be the duty of the Secretary of War to require the names of all slaves in the employment of an officer or soldier of the Confederate Army or Navy, with the names and residence of their owners, and of the person by whom hired out, and of the officer or soldier hiring, to be reported to his Department, and a full register thereof to be kept for public inspection.

SEC. 7. The President shall prescribe regulations for carrying this act into effect and provide for the subsistence of said slaves while in such depots.

Approved October 13, 1862.
 

Rebforever

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#11
There was only one question. And, giving me a 3600+ post reading assignment isn't helpful -- though it is no less than I should have expected. Doubtless buried in there somewhere there's something that can be contorted into an answer (maybe even a real answer!). But, life's too short for me to go digging after information you presumably already have at hand -- or should have, since you made the assertion in the first place.
I strongly agree with you life is too short to spoonfeed other posters. You wouldn't have to read anything just a matter of looking.
 

cash

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#12
Curious that I don't see anything in Gen. Cleburne's letter about "like the States are already doing."

Very unsubtle, there. View attachment 204232

There had been a few black militia companies in the South before the war. The CSA had rejected them. How many of those black militia companies were still in state service in January 1864?
In fact, the letter shows the states were not "already doing."

It says clearly, "our views so new." If the states were "already doing," their views wouldn't be "so new." If the states were "already doing," there in fact wouldn't be a need for this letter.
 

Rebforever

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#13
HDQRS. VOL. AND CONSCRIPT BUREAU, ARMY OF TEN.,

Huntsville, March 6, 1863.

The PLANTERS OF LAUDERDALE, LAWRENCE, AND FRANKLIN COUNTIES:

Your position is much endangered by the raids of the enemy's cavalry. Wherever they go they seize all the negroes they can find. Our army has 2,000 veteran soldiers driving teams. We want to hire negro teamsters to relieve these soldiers and restore them to the ranks, thus greatly strengthening the army. All the negroes you hire to the army will be thus saved to their owners, while at the same time the army is more able to defend and protect the country.

I have made a like requirement of the slave owners of Maury, Giles, and Lincoln Counties, Ten., and of Madison, Limestone, and Morgan Counties, Ala., and I now call upon you. The above counties have responded with patriotic promptitude. In meeting this want of the army and Government you are performing a patriotic duty, and advancing your own interest by preserving your property and aiding the army to protect the homes and property of the owner. If owners shall fail or refuse to comply with this request, they need not complain of the Government if they should be robbed of their negro property. I send Captain McIver, assistant quartermaster, with contracts signed and complete to carry out this order. His official acts will be binding upon the Government. The terms of the contract, you will see, are liberal, and in everything protect your rights.

GID. J. PILLOW,

Brigadier-General, C. S. Army, and Chief of Bureau.

https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/128/0421
 

matthew mckeon

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#14
GENERAL ORDERS,

ADJT. AND INSP. GENERAL'S OFFICE, No. 25.

Richmond, March 6, 1863.

I. The following act of Congress and regulations to enforce the same are published for the information of all persons concerned:

CHAP. LXII. -AN ACT to protect the rights of owners of slaves taken by or employed in the Army.

The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That every person connected with the Army or Navy of the Confederate States arresting or coming into possession of any slave, by capture from the enemy or otherwise than by lawful authority, shall immediately report the same to the commanding officer of the post, or brigade or station to which he may be attached. The said commanding officer shall, with as little delay as practicable, send the slaves so reported to the nearest depot described in the next section, with a register of the place and date of their arrest: Provided, however, That the said slaves or any of them may at once be delivered to their respective owners, if claim is made and established on satisfactory evidence.

SEC. 2. The Secretary of War shall establish depots for recaptured slaves at convenient places, not more than five in numbers, in each State, and all slaves captured in such State shall be kept in such depots. Public notice shall be given of the places so selected.

SEC. 3. Lists of the slaves in each of such depots showing the name and color of such slaves, the place and time of their arrest, and the names of their owners, as given by themselves, or otherwise ascertained, shall be regularly advertised in each State, in one or more newspapers of general circulation.

SEC. 4. While such slaves are in depot, they may be employed, under proper guard, on public works; but no slave shall be removed from the depot to which he is first carried for at least one month after the first advertisement of his being there, nor then, unless an exact register is made of the removal and due advertisement made in the newspapers as aforesaid.

SEC. 5. Free access shall be permitted to all persons desiring to inspect the said slaves for the purpose of identifying them and establishing ownership, and upon due proof they shall be immediately restored to the persons claiming them.

SECfurther be the duty of the Secretary of War to require the names of all slaves in the employment of an officer or soldier of the Confederate Army or Navy, with the names and residence of their owners, and of the person by whom hired out, and of the officer or soldier hiring, to be reported to his Department, and a full register thereof to be kept for public inspection.

SEC. 7. The President shall prescribe regulations for carrying this act into effect and provide for the subsistence of said slaves while in such depots.

Approved October 13, 1862.
This is about treating black Union POWs as slaves, establishing a system for forcing fugitives who had freed themselves back into slavery, and the slaves used as servants and impressed to build fortifications.
 

matthew mckeon

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#15
P. R. Cleburne, major-general, commanding division

This was too much to post so I’ll put how to get to Cleburne’s letter
concerning enlistment of Blacks in the Confederate Army. Even though the States
Had already been enlisting Blacks.

[JANUARY 2, 1864.]
COMMANDING GENERAL, THE CORPS, DIVISION, BRIGADE, AND REGIMENTAL COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY OF TENNESSEE:


Begin Letter
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/110/0586

End of letter
https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/110/0592
This is Gen. Cleburne's famous proposal to start enlisting black slaves as soldiers, after freeing them, dated January 2, 1864. Its hard to resist Cleburne's logic and reasoning, but in fact, the Confederate government did reject it. It does not indicate that either black men were Confederate soldiers prior to this letter, or mention the states recruiting blacks. If we had nothing but this letter, we would have to conclude there were no black soldiers in the Confederate army before Jan. 2 1864, and since Cleburne's proposal wasn't adopted, that there were no black soldiers afterwards as well.
 

diane

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#16
That is quite a reading assignment! I personally don't feel like wading through all that but, if we go from the title of the OP, I'd say Cleburne had a good idea and in time to do some good with it. However, Johnston put it in his desk drawer, locked it and swore everybody to secrecy except one guy, who took it to Richmond. Cleburne like to got hung over it but there was an end to it in Davis' desk drawer. It was in there with Forrest's interesting proposal to clean out Mississippi of outlaws and private war lords, get those troops where they belonged and thus up the manpower of the army - might have taken back a good portion of Mississippi. One wonders what would have happened if either proposal was taken seriously! Cleburne's idea was like garlic to a vampire for Davis - he had been leaned on by the planters for a long time - even caved to a demand by them that Lee do some slave catching while he was up there in Pennsylvania. It happened on its own but Lee had better things to do up there...
 

matthew mckeon

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#17
GENERAL ORDERS,

ADJT. AND INSP. GENERAL'S OFFICE, No. 25.

Richmond, March 6, 1863.

I. The following act of Congress and regulations to enforce the same are published for the information of all persons concerned:

CHAP. LXII. -AN ACT to protect the rights of owners of slaves taken by or employed in the Army.

The Congress of the Confederate States of America do enact, That every person connected with the Army or Navy of the Confederate States arresting or coming into possession of any slave, by capture from the enemy or otherwise than by lawful authority, shall immediately report the same to the commanding officer of the post, or brigade or station to which he may be attached. The said commanding officer shall, with as little delay as practicable, send the slaves so reported to the nearest depot described in the next section, with a register of the place and date of their arrest: Provided, however, That the said slaves or any of them may at once be delivered to their respective owners, if claim is made and established on satisfactory evidence.

SEC. 2. The Secretary of War shall establish depots for recaptured slaves at convenient places, not more than five in numbers, in each State, and all slaves captured in such State shall be kept in such depots. Public notice shall be given of the places so selected.

SEC. 3. Lists of the slaves in each of such depots showing the name and color of such slaves, the place and time of their arrest, and the names of their owners, as given by themselves, or otherwise ascertained, shall be regularly advertised in each State, in one or more newspapers of general circulation.

SEC. 4. While such slaves are in depot, they may be employed, under proper guard, on public works; but no slave shall be removed from the depot to which he is first carried for at least one month after the first advertisement of his being there, nor then, unless an exact register is made of the removal and due advertisement made in the newspapers as aforesaid.

SEC. 5. Free access shall be permitted to all persons desiring to inspect the said slaves for the purpose of identifying them and establishing ownership, and upon due proof they shall be immediately restored to the persons claiming them.

SECfurther be the duty of the Secretary of War to require the names of all slaves in the employment of an officer or soldier of the Confederate Army or Navy, with the names and residence of their owners, and of the person by whom hired out, and of the officer or soldier hiring, to be reported to his Department, and a full register thereof to be kept for public inspection.

SEC. 7. The President shall prescribe regulations for carrying this act into effect and provide for the subsistence of said slaves while in such depots.

Approved October 13, 1862.
""WAR DEPARTMENT, C. S. ARMY, ADJUTANT AND INSPECTOR GENERAL'S OFFICE,

Richmond, Va., March 15, 1865.

Majs. J. W. PEGRAM and THOMAS P. TURNER:

(Through General Ewell.)

SIRS: You are hereby authorized to raise a company or companies of negro soldiers under the provisions of the act of Congress approved March 13, 1865. When the requisite number shall have been recruited they will be mustered into the service for the war, and muster-rolls forwarded to this office. The companies when organized will be subject to the rules and regulations governing the Provisional Army of the Confederate States.

By command of the Secretary of War:

JOHN W. RIELY,

Assistant Adjutant-General.

https://ehistory.osu.edu/books/official-records/096/1318
This is the well known 11th hour attempt to create black Confederate soldiers. I believe a number of men employed as hospital stewards were organized into infantry companies. But is its five weeks to Appomattox. Based on this document, we would have to conclude there were no Confederate black troops before March of 1865, and they amounted to a few hundred.
 
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#18
Here is the end of the Cleburn letter... This is important Cleburn talking about an independent nation and slavery is second to nationhood.

It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government and to deprive us of our rights and liberties. We have now briefly proposed a plan which we believed will save our couimperfect, but in all human probability, it would give us our independence. No objection ought to outweigh it which is not weightier than independence. If it is worthy of being put in practice it ought to be mooted quickly before the people, and urged earnestly by every man who believes in its efficacy. Negroes will require much training; training will require time, and there is the danger that this concession to common sense may come too late.
 
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#19
Here is the end of the Cleburn letter... This is important Cleburn talking about an independent nation and slavery is second to nationhood.

It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government and to deprive us of our rights and liberties. We have now briefly proposed a plan which we believed will save our couimperfect, but in all human probability, it would give us our independence. No objection ought to outweigh it which is not weightier than independence. If it is worthy of being put in practice it ought to be mooted quickly before the people, and urged earnestly by every man who believes in its efficacy. Negroes will require much training; training will require time, and there is the danger that this concession to common sense may come too late.
Too bad most of the Confederacy's politicians disagreed with Cleburne. Independence without slavery was anathema to them which is why they had such trouble passing the necessary legislation when the Federal boot was on their neck and time was running out. They could not conceive of this desperate action until time was all but gone.

Ryan
 

matthew mckeon

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#20
Here is the end of the Cleburn letter... This is important Cleburn talking about an independent nation and slavery is second to nationhood.

It is said slavery is all we are fighting for, and if we give it up we give up all. Even if this were true, which we deny, slavery is not all our enemies are fighting for. It is merely the pretense to establish sectional superiority and a more centralized form of government and to deprive us of our rights and liberties. We have now briefly proposed a plan which we believed will save our couimperfect, but in all human probability, it would give us our independence. No objection ought to outweigh it which is not weightier than independence. If it is worthy of being put in practice it ought to be mooted quickly before the people, and urged earnestly by every man who believes in its efficacy. Negroes will require much training; training will require time, and there is the danger that this concession to common sense may come too late.
But as the reaction to his proposal proves, General Cleburne was very much in the minority.
 



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