Civil War muskets or rifles with bullets faster than the speed of sound?


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major bill

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Modern rifles bullets fly faster than the speed of sound. What Civil War bullets flew faster than the speed of sound?
 

Don Dixon

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The Austrian Army bullet used in the Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifles had a muzzle velocity of about 1,300 feet per second. The Confederates imported small quantities of it. The standard cartridge used, however, was the one intended for the Model 1841 Mississippi rifle, which had muzzle velocity of 850 to 900 feet per second in these rifles, which was why the sights of the Austrian guns were not calibrated to the American ammunition.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

Rebforever

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The Austrian Army bullet used in the Muster 1854 System Lorenz rifles had a muzzle velocity of about 1,300 feet per second. The Confederates imported small quantities of it. The standard cartridge used, however, was the one intended for the Model 1841 Mississippi rifle, which had muzzle velocity of 850 to 900 feet per second in these rifles, which was why the sights of the Austrian guns were not calibrated to the American ammunition.

Regards,
Don Dixon
Sounds like a shoulder bruiser to me.
 

Don Dixon

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Not particularly. Lorenz’s straight stock design sucks up the recoil of the 62 grain Austrian load pretty well if one is properly trained to shoot. I’ve shot many of them. Numbers of Federal soldiers complained of the recoil of the Federal Army’s under powered 50 grain load, however.

But, I’ve fired thousands of match 7.62 rounds through national match M14s and .308 and 30-06 cartridges through full bore match rifles and never found the recoil objectionable in the slightest.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 

thomas aagaard

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I used the German H&K G3 for 10 month when I did my mandatory service.
You learned how to shoot well with it... because of the recoil... Or you get a black eye and/or bruised shoulder.

If I was in charge of how modern day danish recruits was trained, I would issue them with G3s or another 7.62 semi automatic rifle first... Then after they learned to use it well, issue them with the modern 556 rifles they are going to use for the rest of their service.
 

archieclement

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I used the German H&K G3 for 10 month when I did my mandatory service.
You learned how to shoot well with it... because of the recoil... Or you get a black eye and/or bruised shoulder.

If I was in charge of how modern day danish recruits was trained, I would issue them with G3s or another 7.62 semi automatic rifle first... Then after they learned to use it well, issue them with the modern 556 rifles they are going to use for the rest of their service.
I always wanted to shoot a G3 but never have, I used to own a FN/FAL and its recoil wasnt bad at all
 

Booner

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....
But, I’ve fired thousands of match 7.62 rounds through national match M14s and .308 and 30-06 cartridges through full bore match rifles and never found the recoil objectionable in the slightest.

Regards,
Don Dixon
But Mr. Dixon, your M14 is a semi Auto, and that will soak up a lot of the felt recoil.
I don't believe I've shot an M14, but I have shot an M1 Garrand many times and have always found the recoil very easy on my shoulder. I've always run out of ammo before i wanted to stop shooting.

I have also shot the Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R loaded to approximately the same as a 30-06 military load, and the recoil of that mother becomes rather uncomfortable after 20 or so rounds. But it's a bolt action, verses a semi auto as in the M14 or M1.
 

gary

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I used to shoot the civilian version of the G-3, the HK-91 all the time. Not a shoulder bruiser at all & very accurate. Now, the Rem 870 with the "police model" folding stock really hurts the web of the hand.

I'd have to check with the Lyman Handbook to see what the Whitworth rifle does.
 

Don Dixon

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But Mr. Dixon, your M14 is a semi Auto, and that will soak up a lot of the felt recoil....I have also shot the Mosin Nagant 7.62x54R loaded to approximately the same as a 30-06 military load, and the recoil of that mother becomes rather uncomfortable after 20 or so rounds. But it's a bolt action, verses a semi auto as in the M14 or M1.
I believe that I said that I also shot full bore target rifles in .308 and 30-06. They are all bolt rifles. The standard NRA regional high power course is 86 or 106 rounds with sighters.

Regards,
Don Dixon
 
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Tailor Pete

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Not particularly. Lorenz’s straight stock design sucks up the recoil of the 62 grain Austrian load pretty well if one is properly trained to shoot. I’ve shot many of them. Numbers of Federal soldiers complained of the recoil of the Federal Army’s under powered 50 grain load, however.

But, I’ve fired thousands of match 7.62 rounds through national match M14s and .308 and 30-06 cartridges through full bore match rifles and never found the recoil objectionable in the slightest.

Regards,
Don Dixon
Having fired a number of original and reproduction CW long arms, I can tell you that the sheer weight of a Musket / Rifle-musket / Rifle effectively minimizes recoil IF period powder loads are used. Carbines, on the other hand... WHOLE different story!
 

Booner

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I believe that I said that I also shot full bore target rifles in .308 and 30-06. They are all bolt rifles. The standard NRA regional high power course is 86 or 106 rounds with sighters.

Regards,
Don Dixon
You did, but you also said national match M14's I took that as service rifle competition.
My Bad.
 

pfcjking

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I used the German H&K G3 for 10 month when I did my mandatory service.
You learned how to shoot well with it... because of the recoil... Or you get a black eye and/or bruised shoulder.

If I was in charge of how modern day danish recruits was trained, I would issue them with G3s or another 7.62 semi automatic rifle first... Then after they learned to use it well, issue them with the modern 556 rifles they are going to use for the rest of their service.
I also use that training model. When my wife goes to the gun range with me, I make her practice with .357 magnums. Then when she concealed carries, I load her up with .38 special HP. She can split hairs with .38 specials after training with the .357.
 
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Not particularly. Lorenz’s straight stock design sucks up the recoil of the 62 grain Austrian load pretty well if one is properly trained to shoot. I’ve shot many of them. Numbers of Federal soldiers complained of the recoil of the Federal Army’s under powered 50 grain load, however.

But, I’ve fired thousands of match 7.62 rounds through national match M14s and .308 and 30-06 cartridges through full bore match rifles and never found the recoil objectionable in the slightest.

Regards,
Don Dixon
My father-in-law had an M1-A in .308 and I had a Winchester Model 70 also in .308. I did not have a recoil problem with either. I sold my model 70 to a friend a few years ago and he still uses it every year when hunting. My wife's cousin got the M-1A.
 

Booner

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Modern rifles bullets fly faster than the speed of sound. What Civil War bullets flew faster than the speed of sound?
I believe the standard for the speed of sound at sea level, at 59 degrees is 1,116.44195 fps or 761 mph. The speed of sound changes with temperature; as air gets colder, the speed of sound gets slower. The converse is also true, as air get hotter, the speed of sound increases.

Your'e on vacation at the ocean. It's a cold day, only 60 degrees Fahrenheit. You yell at your wife to get you a beer. At that temperature, your voice traveled at approximately 1,120 fps.
That loud "thunk" sound, when she threw the beer that hit you in the back of the head, also traveled at 1,120 fps.

The speed of sound is important in ballistics because as a bullet slows as it approaches the speed of sound, the airflow around the bullet becomes unstable, and the bullet begins to yaw, and it's accuracy is degraded. The speed of sound is known as Mach 1, and again changes with temperature. As a bullet approaches Mach 1, the air flowing past it cannot get out of the way fast enough, the laminar airflow around the bullet gets disrupted as variations in pressure and shock waves act upon the bullet. This phenomenon begins at round 1.2 mach and continues to 0.75 mach, (the transonic zone).
 

major bill

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There is an old adage about not hearing the shot that kills you. In a modern war this is likely true. But with sub sonic Civil War long arms, the souls should reach you before the projectile.
 

E_just_E

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Modern rifles bullets fly faster than the speed of sound. What Civil War bullets flew faster than the speed of sound?
It was not the bullet, it was the riffle and it was not standardized. I have seen ballistic references suggesting that certain civil war rifles can speed a bullet up to 350 m/sec (speed of sound is 343) ; however it will depend on a particular bullet, amount of powder etc. I have not yet to see references regarding bullets flying silently in battlefields, though... They usually buzzed :wink:
 
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