Capt or Col Quantrill?

I am not beating a drum for marauding Jayhawkers for sure. I am deeply concerned that there is a WCQ society in 2022, however, but may become less concerned as this thread developes. I think it's mostly a question of personal morality, allowing adjustments for the century and a half that has passed. If my sister/wife/other beloved female relative had been killed or maimed in the collapse of a Yankee prison in Kansas City - even if I believed it was deliberately undermined by US authorities - my retribution would not be visited upon unarmed civilians in Lawrence (including boys between 14 and 18). That would be the act of a coward. WCQ himself during Lawrence seems to have been in control of himself, according to Castel. At least he wasn't drunk. His 'command,' if you want to dignify it with a military term, exercised a Viking-like license to slaughter. Bottom line, these are not the acts of Christian men but banditti exploiting the dislocation of war to settle personal feuds dating back to Bleeding Kansas. Lane is not much better, but at least he liberated his fellow man rather than profit by duping runaways for resale to the slave market.

Serious question: does WCQ have one virtue that precludes him from the character of psychopath? Castel records that he had already murdered one man by the age of nineteen.
Its absurd to suggest Lane or the rest of the jayhawkers wasn't motivated by profit.....

Again warehouses full of stolen goods, auctions were held in the streets, postwar the addage for good horse flesh or linage was "Out of Missouri by Jennison" ie stolen..... The sheer scale of quantity and variety of goods stolen certainly suggests it was the primary motivation.

The Union while not officially condoning it, mostly provided cover for the acts by not investigating, prosecuting jayhawkers and/or returning the stolen goods. Whenever people are denied justice by the "authorities" they often take care of it themselves by vigilantism retribution. Vigilantism often may not be "Christian" but personally seems an understandable response to justice otherwise denied. As the robbery and murders by jayhawkers leading to the increasing guerrilla response, certainly wasn't Christian either.

Theres a rather simple reason the guerrilla war in Missouri was unparalleled, and the other border or occupied states didn't have comparable levels. The reason is rather simple, other states didn't have jayhawkers provoking vigilantism in them by continued criminal actions on the populace.

Have no issue if one considers the war here not Christian, but seems rather absurd to not then condemn the sides criminal activity that provoked other others criminal activity.
 
Last edited:
'Vigilantism often may not be "Christian" but personally seems an understandable response to justice otherwise denied.'

Including the murder of children? Sorry, I can't agree in any circumstances. I respect your opinion, however.
 
'Vigilantism often may not be "Christian" but personally seems an understandable response to justice otherwise denied.'

Including the murder of children? Sorry, I can't agree in any circumstances. I respect your opinion, however.
Children in a war that routinely used children........how old do you think participants were? My avatar was 16. The only "child" I know of was large for his age sources say, wearing a Union blouse, and riding away on horseback.....Special forces today would not let someone escape to give warning while behind lines....they can't afford to. Also if concerned about children's fate, I would suggest reading about Sand Creek in ACW.

Its always strikes me funny in a forum that often concerns itself with "lost cause", that wartime propaganda is seemingly deemed acceptable decades, even centuries after the fact. I can understand the view in wartime to present yourself as "good" and the other side as "bad"...... Which the easiest way by far to do, is ignore or sweep under the rug your sides criminal activity by not prosecuting, thereby avoiding the bad press.

But one certainly will find US behavior in most wars, including the ACW, as psychopathic if you like as the guerrillas, but lets stay in the era or times leading up to it. Perhaps examine Texas Rangers conduct in Mexican War the decade before, or my counties namesake in the ARW, Francis Marion. Certainly jayhawkers and some Union militia themselves would be psychopathic if one wishes to use that term.

But as I don't refer to US conduct in ARW, Mexican war, countless Indian wars or even our special forces today as psychopathic, I don't the guerrillas either. As Sherman rather pointedly said " War is cruelty and you can't refine it".
 
Last edited:
I am not beating a drum for marauding Jayhawkers for sure. I am deeply concerned that there is a WCQ society in 2022, however, but may become less concerned as this thread developes.

Serious question: does WCQ have one virtue that precludes him from the character of psychopath? Castel records that he had already murdered one man by the age of nineteen.
I'm not aware of any members of WCQ society members ever posting on this forum.
-I kinda wish they would, I think that would be interesting.

Serious answer-- A standing order from WCQ- No one is to harm a woman. And as far as I know, while WCQ was the leader, no harm came to any woman. (I can't say that for Wm. Anderson though). Realize that these men were sort of governed by Victorian values.
 
'Vigilantism often may not be "Christian" but personally seems an understandable response to justice otherwise denied.'

Including the murder of children? Sorry, I can't agree in any circumstances. I respect your opinion, however.
The only child killed at Lawrence, to my knowledge, was 14-year-old Bobby Martin, killed as he was trying to leave town through some brush and woods on the town's western side. I'm paraphrasing from Leslie's book, "The Devil Knows How to Ride" page 226; He (Bobby) was big for his age and unfortunately was wearing the pants from his father's Federal uniform. One of the guerrilla pickets saw him and gave chase and opened fire, the bullet hitting Bobby in the head. There were other young boys in the area, all trying to get out of town. Edmund Fisher (10 years old), was one of them and he said years later that he and another young boy were shot at a number of times as they ran through the heavy undergrowth of the bushes, "the rebels probably mistaking us for men as we flew through the sumac and hazel bushes."

Lawrence was a known depot for the gathering of items stolen out of Missouri. The local warehouses were full of all types of household goods and the barns filled with stolen animals. All these good were gathered here waiting for auctions to take place when the warehouse would be cleared out, only to be filled again with the next Jay hawking raid into Missouri. The money from the sale of the stolen goods would be divided up between the officers and the men of the Jay Hawking units and the Redleg's. Certainly, the citizens of Lawrence were aware of all of this, but no voices were raised to condemn it. With regards to the citizens of Lawence, Albert Castel wrote "The town folk acquiesced in the selling and purchasing the stolen property." The American legal system has always maintained that an accessory to a crime is as culpable as the perpetrators to that crime.

And as horrible as slavery was, I can't condone Lane's activity in freeing those slaves, when that activity involved the murder and arson on those slave's former master at a time when it was legal to own slaves. I'm imagine he thought he was doing God's work: destroying everything the slave owner had worked to build, making his wife a widow and his children orphans because they owned another person. And as long as Lane makes some money from all of this activity, I'm sure he thought that's ok too.

I don't know the name of the youngest boy who rode with the guerrillas, but he was 12 years old and known as "Baby Anderson" as he was a favorite of "Bloody Bill" Anderson. I don't know if he made it through the war or not, I've only seen a reference made about him one time. My favorite young Guerrilla was Riley Crawford. He was 13 when some of Penick's troops out of Independence, Mo during the winter of 1862/3 raided their farm burning it to the ground and killing his father, all of this for the crime of being southerners, No slaves, no sons fighting for the south, the Crawford's just had southern sentiments as did so many of the rural folks of Jackson County. Riley's mother was left destitute with several children and nothing but the clothes on their backs. If neighbors helped her, then they too might get burned out for giving aid and comfort to the "Enemy.'' In the spring of 1863, Quantrill is camped near her farm so she takes Riley and his two older brothers to Quantrill's camp and askes Quantrill to "Make soldiers out of them, so they can avenge their father."

When I first learned about Riley, I couldn't believe the story. What mother would do this with her three sons? Then I began to realize she had no choices. She could place her other children in her friends and relative houses, but not young boys close to or at soldering age. Whoever took these boys in would become a target. Riley's mother's maiden name was Harris, but her mother's maiden name was Fristoe. In the 1820's two Fristoe brothers were among the early settlers of Jackson County, Missouri. They both married and raised large families, but most of their children were females. It's now 1863 and all of the Fristoe girls are grown and married and living throughout Jackson County. Once I knew this story, I realized that Riley's mother did "give up" her sons to be soldiers, she gave them to Quantrill because riding with Quantrill were the only male relatives she and Riley had left. The Younger's, Mccorkle's and Harris's were all first and second cousins to Riley and his brothers. His brothers go on to join the southern army, but Riley, being only 13 or 14 at the time was too young for the army, but he was old enough to become a guerilla.

Riley had two older sisters who were married, and later that summer they were caught by the Federals for possibly giving aid to the guerrillas or that their brothers were in the southern army, and they were imprisoned in Kansas City. Both of them were killed when the jail collapsed, along with the sister of John McCorkle and the eldest sister to William Anderson; his two youngest sisters lived through the collapse but were maimed for life. These four women that were killed were related by blood or marriage to about 35-40% of the men who rode with Quantrill. (The fifth woman killed, a Mrs. Wilson, nothing is known about her). Given the prevailing thinking amount the guerrillas that you don't harm women, and that the rumors were widespread that the collapse was not an accident, the guerrillas had reached their limit-the raid on Lawrence occurred 8 days later.

Riley went on to be a veteran of Lawrence and Baxter Springs. In the early fall of 1864, he was killed in Cooper County Missouri while riding under David Poole's command. Riley was a favorite of Poole and supposedly Poole cried like a child when Riley died. He was buried at night in an unmarked grave in the old Concord Graveyard. To give him a Christian burial would have been against the law. His grave is about 10 miles from where I live.
 
@George1863, I think we should remind ourselves that the guerrillas in Q's command (and in all other commands) were individuals just like you and I are. Some of Quantrill's men left after Lawrence, choosing to go into regular service. Also remember that Q lost his command to Anderson and Todd over the winter following Lawrence. I believe they thought he was not violent enough. Since studying these guys, I've begun to suspect that Anderson and Todd's groups were responsible for most of the excesses at Lawrence. Q. in fact tried to retire from the war through much of 1864. He spent that time in a cabin in Howard County, Missouri, not far from where @Booner and I live. He did have a strange duality. He could be cunning and ruthless, or sometimes chivalrous. He once freed a union officer because he respected the man's courage and honesty. And he shot and killed one of his followers because the man tried to steal a horse from a widow in Howard County. Quantrill was a complex individual. People hate him for sure. Others love him. I don't think anyone truly understands him.
 
Last edited:
Today is Sunday, August 21st, 2022. If my math is correct, 159 years ago this morning, the raid on Lawrence occurred, August 21st 1863.

I'm just mentioning it on this tread because the raid is probably the one thing that most people associate Quantrill with; maybe it's the only thing they know about Quantrill. Rather than bump an old thread on the raid, I think I'll start a new one where we can hash things out.
 
The only child killed at Lawrence, to my knowledge, was 14-year-old Bobby Martin, killed as he was trying to leave town through some brush and woods on the town's western side. I'm paraphrasing from Leslie's book, "The Devil Knows How to Ride" page 226; He (Bobby) was big for his age and unfortunately was wearing the pants from his father's Federal uniform. One of the guerrilla pickets saw him and gave chase and opened fire, the bullet hitting Bobby in the head. There were other young boys in the area, all trying to get out of town. Edmund Fisher (10 years old), was one of them and he said years later that he and another young boy were shot at a number of times as they ran through the heavy undergrowth of the bushes, "the rebels probably mistaking us for men as we flew through the sumac and hazel bushes."

Lawrence was a known depot for the gathering of items stolen out of Missouri. The local warehouses were full of all types of household goods and the barns filled with stolen animals. All these good were gathered here waiting for auctions to take place when the warehouse would be cleared out, only to be filled again with the next Jay hawking raid into Missouri. The money from the sale of the stolen goods would be divided up between the officers and the men of the Jay Hawking units and the Redleg's. Certainly, the citizens of Lawrence were aware of all of this, but no voices were raised to condemn it. With regards to the citizens of Lawence, Albert Castel wrote "The town folk acquiesced in the selling and purchasing the stolen property." The American legal system has always maintained that an accessory to a crime is as culpable as the perpetrators to that crime.

And as horrible as slavery was, I can't condone Lane's activity in freeing those slaves, when that activity involved the murder and arson on those slave's former master at a time when it was legal to own slaves. I'm imagine he thought he was doing God's work: destroying everything the slave owner had worked to build, making his wife a widow and his children orphans because they owned another person. And as long as Lane makes some money from all of this activity, I'm sure he thought that's ok too.

I don't know the name of the youngest boy who rode with the guerrillas, but he was 12 years old and known as "Baby Anderson" as he was a favorite of "Bloody Bill" Anderson. I don't know if he made it through the war or not, I've only seen a reference made about him one time. My favorite young Guerrilla was Riley Crawford. He was 13 when some of Penick's troops out of Independence, Mo during the winter of 1862/3 raided their farm burning it to the ground and killing his father, all of this for the crime of being southerners, No slaves, no sons fighting for the south, the Crawford's just had southern sentiments as did so many of the rural folks of Jackson County. Riley's mother was left destitute with several children and nothing but the clothes on their backs. If neighbors helped her, then they too might get burned out for giving aid and comfort to the "Enemy.'' In the spring of 1863, Quantrill is camped near her farm so she takes Riley and his two older brothers to Quantrill's camp and askes Quantrill to "Make soldiers out of them, so they can avenge their father."

When I first learned about Riley, I couldn't believe the story. What mother would do this with her three sons? Then I began to realize she had no choices. She could place her other children in her friends and relative houses, but not young boys close to or at soldering age. Whoever took these boys in would become a target. Riley's mother's maiden name was Harris, but her mother's maiden name was Fristoe. In the 1820's two Fristoe brothers were among the early settlers of Jackson County, Missouri. They both married and raised large families, but most of their children were females. It's now 1863 and all of the Fristoe girls are grown and married and living throughout Jackson County. Once I knew this story, I realized that Riley's mother did "give up" her sons to be soldiers, she gave them to Quantrill because riding with Quantrill were the only male relatives she and Riley had left. The Younger's, Mccorkle's and Harris's were all first and second cousins to Riley and his brothers. His brothers go on to join the southern army, but Riley, being only 13 or 14 at the time was too young for the army, but he was old enough to become a guerilla.

Riley had two older si!sters who were married, and later that summer they were caught by the Federals for possibly giving aid to the guerrillas or that their brothers were in the southern army, and they were imprisoned in Kansas City. Both of them were killed when the jail collapsed, along with the sister of John McCorkle and the eldest sister to William Anderson; his two youngest sisters lived through the collapse but were maimed for life. These four women that were killed were related by blood or marriage to about 35-40% of the men who rode with Quantrill. (The fifth woman killed, a Mrs. Wilson, nothing is known about her). Given the prevailing thinking amount the guerrillas that you don't harm women, and that the rumors were widespread that the collapse was not an accident, the guerrillas had reached their limit-the raid on Lawrence occurred 8 days later.

Riley went on to be a veteran of Lawrence and Baxter Springs. In the early fall of 1864, he was killed in Cooper County Missouri while riding under David Poole's command. Riley was a favorite of Poole and supposedly Poole cried like a child when Riley died. He was buried at night in an unmarked grave in the old Concord Graveyard. To give him a Christian burial would have been against the law. His grave is about 10 miles from where I live.

Great! Straight forward reporting!
 
Back
Top