California wasn't a prize to be won in the civil war for trade with china

ebg12

Corporal
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
444
#1
3 of the 40th richest men ever to live in the United States made there fortune by trade with China
before the civil war:

Girad (1750-1831)-Massachusetts
Derby (1739-1799)-Philadelphia
Astor(1763-1848)-New York

Trade with China was difficult but lucrative. Few ships made the voyage.

Trade strategy with China was based on importing tea, Napkeen (a cloth), chinaware &
exporting opium, furs, silver.

Tea made up 80% percent of the imports.

American had a difficult time competing with British in the early 1800's
because the monopoly Britian had over the opium trade.

By the mid 1800 the demand for fur pelts in china decline.

By 1842 Britain won the opium war with china securing the port of Shanghai for themselfs.

In 1844 President John Taylor signed the Treat of Wanghsia securing the same rights for America
almost equal to what the British trade rights were.

The treaty regulated trade and eliminated reckless voyages by American merchants to China.

By the time the civil war began the opium wars between Britain and China were over.

Trade with China by Britain and America was well established before the civil war began.

Trade before the civil war was already controlled by Northern family owned merchants in New York and Philadelphia.

Acquiring California as a trading post with China for American Northern Merchants would have been
of little value because the eastern ports were closer to the populated areas and their trading interstructure in eastern ports
were already established.

The South had little to gain too from acquiring California as a trading post with China. What did the South had but raw cotton...which China markets did not want. California to the South was just another place to plant cotton to be picked by slaves.
 
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OpnCoronet

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
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#3
Good Points. The fortunes to be made trading with China was mostly a figment of the imagination of Western traders, mesmerized by the the very large population of China, which was interpetated as potential customers, disregarding the fact, that most of the people were desperately por, and had no need for Western products.
 

uaskme

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
1,961
#4
Westerners wanted that trade. Yankee traders wanted anything the Brits wanted. Southerners no different. May of been mostly dreams, however, Riches compel people to action. The west hooked China on Opium. so, Opium was a early export that the Chinese wanted. They used it instead of Cash. Trade balances and such. Over time, China became an important trading partner. Billion people could certainly use Cotton. China has always been a trader of Silks, Tea, etc. It was part of Manifest Destiny that Anglos wanted that trade. U.S. forces Japan to open its ports. Japan used as a coaling station to China. Hawaii the same. Recon the Bearing Strait, purchase of Alaska, had anything to do with China? England and with our help force China to open its doors. U.S. also needed Labor. The Coolies were looked upon as perfect. Edited. They don't bring their wives. So, didn't have to worry about them wanting to Vote. Poor, Starving and Cheap Labor. Make a little money, with the goal to return home. Can't say the Chinese didn't make a early impact on the U.S.
 

jgoodguy

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
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Messages
35,552
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
#5
Westerners wanted that trade. Yankee traders wanted anything the Brits wanted. Southerners no different. May of been mostly dreams, however, Riches compel people to action. The west hooked China on Opium. so, Opium was a early export that the Chinese wanted. They used it instead of Cash. Trade balances and such. Over time, China became an important trading partner. Billion people could certainly use Cotton. China has always been a trader of Silks, Tea, etc. It was part of Manifest Destiny that Anglos wanted that trade. U.S. forces Japan to open its ports. Japan used as a coaling station to China. Hawaii the same. Recon the Bearing Strait, purchase of Alaska, had anything to do with China? England and with our help force China to open its doors. U.S. also needed Labor. The Coolies were looked upon as perfect. Edited. They don't bring their wives. So, didn't have to worry about them wanting to Vote. Poor, Starving and Cheap Labor. Make a little money, with the goal to return home. Can't say the Chinese didn't make a early impact on the U.S.
China had cotton long before the US South.

History

Cotton, which is called mian (棉) or mumian (木棉) in Chinese was first reported from an area now known as Yunnan, some time around 200 BC.[4] Lao-ai tribe in the southwest border region is reported to have produced quality cotton cloth around 25–220 CE. In the Tarim Basin archaeological finds of cotton cloth on mummies dated around 1,000 BC have also been reported. In the early Han dynasty period in Siachen in Western China, around 100 BC, quality cotton cloth has been noted. From all these documented and archaeological evidences, a historian has called the introduction of cotton in the country as "southernization" during which period the cotton species introduced were Gossypium herbaceum (an Afro-Asian species) and Gossypium arboreum and Gossypium hardense from India; the latter species were grown in Guangdong and Fujian provinces during the ninth century AD but were blocked for introduction into Sichuan province due to a strong silk lobby.[4] However, adoption of scientific methods of cultivation came into practice only from 1949.[5]
 

diane

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Jan 23, 2010
Messages
20,341
Location
State of Jefferson
#6
Trade with China wasn't why California was important to both South and North - gold was. Sibley was sent to grab the gold fields around Stockton and Sacramento...but he didn't get far. The Great Bullion Raid in Placerville was another attempt to get a sizable amount of gold to the CSA. People who came to Southern California after the war because of its Confederate leanings discovered very quickly cotton just didn't grow in the West. Wheat, corn and tomatoes did. Lots of ex-cotton planters buried out here!
 

uaskme

Sergeant Major
Joined
Nov 9, 2016
Messages
1,961
#8
China had cotton long before the US South.

History

Cotton, which is called mian (棉) or mumian (木棉) in Chinese was first reported from an area now known as Yunnan, some time around 200 BC.[4] Lao-ai tribe in the southwest border region is reported to have produced quality cotton cloth around 25–220 CE. In the Tarim Basin archaeological finds of cotton cloth on mummies dated around 1,000 BC have also been reported. In the early Han dynasty period in Siachen in Western China, around 100 BC, quality cotton cloth has been noted. From all these documented and archaeological evidences, a historian has called the introduction of cotton in the country as "southernization" during which period the cotton species introduced were Gossypium herbaceum (an Afro-Asian species) and Gossypium arboreum and Gossypium hardense from India; the latter species were grown in Guangdong and Fujian provinces during the ninth century AD but were blocked for introduction into Sichuan province due to a strong silk lobby.[4] However, adoption of scientific methods of cultivation came into practice only from 1949.[5]
Per you source, some cotton production wasn’t exploited until 1949.

South being the largest producer and exporter of Cotton during this period, would certainly look to a country with 1.5 Billion people as a market. At a time when there were only 30 some millions in the U S.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
1,630
#13
3 of the 40th richest men ever to live in the United States made there fortune by trade with China
before the civil war:

Girad (1750-1831)-Massachusetts
Derby (1739-1799)-Philadelphia
Astor(1763-1848)-New York

Trade with China was difficult but lucrative. Few ships made the voyage.

Trade strategy with China was based on importing tea, Napkeen (a cloth), chinaware &
exporting opium, furs, silver.

Tea made up 80% percent of the imports.

American had a difficult time competing with British in the early 1800's
because the monopoly Britian had over the opium trade.

By the mid 1800 the demand for fur pelts in china decline.

By 1842 Britain won the opium war with china securing the port of Shanghai for themselfs.

In 1844 President John Taylor signed the Treat of Wanghsia securing the same rights for America
almost equal to what the British trade rights were.

The treaty regulated trade and eliminated reckless voyages by American merchants to China.

By the time the civil war began the opium wars between Britain and China were over.

Trade with China by Britain and America was well established before the civil war began.

Trade before the civil war was already controlled by Northern family owned merchants in New York and Philadelphia.

Acquiring California as a trading post with China for American Northern Merchants would have been
of little value because the eastern ports were closer to the populated areas and their trading interstructure in eastern ports
were already established.

The South had little to gain too from acquiring California as a trading post with China. What did the South had but raw cotton...which China markets did not want. California to the South was just another place to plant cotton to be picked by slaves.
Most negatives are hard to prove. This one is not only impossible to prove but the exact opposite is easily provable.
 

ebg12

Corporal
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
444
#16
Most negatives are hard to prove. This one is not only impossible to prove but the exact opposite is easily provable. Zzzzz.
That is the only thing your disputing of the whole thread? If the three men mentioned can be included in the top richest men in the us? No other points?
 

major bill

Colonel
Forum Host
Joined
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Messages
14,930
#17
There were other trade opportunities open to the Confederacy if they could gain control of California. The Union did not want to retain California only for the trade with China. So it would make sense that Chinese trade would not be the prime objective of the Confederacy securing control of California.
 

WJC

Brigadier General
Moderator
Thread Medic
Joined
Aug 16, 2015
Messages
11,054
#18
***Posted as Moderator***
The topic under discussion is "California wasn't a prize to be won in the Civil War for trade with China".
It is not an open discussion of US relations with China, the opium trade, slave trade or Chinese immigration. It is not intended to reargue the points covered in another open thread.

Please remain on-topic.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2018
Messages
1,630
#19
There were other trade opportunities open to the Confederacy if they could gain control of California. The Union did not want to retain California only for the trade with China. So it would make sense that Chinese trade would not be the prime objective of the Confederacy securing control of California.
Thanks for your post.

I would happily read all you could write in support of this negative declaration (your last sentence). I can agree with sentences one and two, just not three.
 

OpnCoronet

Lt. Colonel
Joined
Feb 23, 2010
Messages
10,255
#20
The theory that California's position was the prize for confederate trade with China, apparently assumes that vast fortunes were to made in the China Trade. The evidence of such a trade actually existing during the ante-bellum southern traders, does not IMO, exist. If such a trade existed before the War, it is likely that the proof of it, would be the large numbers of New England shipping magnates would be deeply involved in it.

There was money to be made in trade with the fringes of Chna, S.E. Asia(mostly spices) but, not China and, certainly not vast fortunes.

China was a closed society and very xenophobic and very difficult to trade with under almost any circumstances. S.E. Asia, was divided into almost exclusive trading bloc;s under control of European of Asiatic imperial powers. What profits to be made, would be in Shipping,

The only real advantage a TRR with California in trade with China(or , more likely, S.E. Asia and S. Pacific Island trade) would be speed to markets on the Eastern Seaboard, and be in direct competition with not only a Northern TRR, but, also with Northern Shipping Fleets(that is if a market to support such efforts, actually existed, which, as evidenced by trade with Calif. before the War is any evidence, seems unlikely).
 



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