Burnside and His Bridge (A Matter of Time)

That doesn’t seem like a very efficient way to command an army. Rather than sending a messenger directly south to Burnside, McClellan sent a messenger northeast to Keedysville to tell Ruggles to send an order south to Burnside to start his crossing? I don’t think that makes much sense.

Sure, it might not be optimally efficient, but it's not so inefficient as to be impossible or unlikely. Inefficiencies are not uncommon in a huge army. McClellan was a great organizer, but contrary to popular opinion, he wasn't perfect. :wink:

Also, is there any indication that Burnside, or any of McClellan’s corps commanders, knew that McClellan’s HQ was in Keedysville? Sumner apparently thought McClellan’s HQ was at the Pry House. If Cox played a significant role in creating those Carman/Cope Antietam maps, then he must have thought that McClellan’s HQ was at the Pry House. Ezra Carman obviously thought that McClellan’s HQ was the Pry House.

Sumner apparently thought that McClellan, not necessarily his HQ, was at the Pry house. I don't know what Burnside thought about the location of McClellan's HQ. Cox did have Carman's ear but I don't know if he had an influence specifically about the location of the army's HQ. Perhaps Carman was wrong about that. Both were at the battle but didn't visit the HQ as far as I know. I'd be interested in seeing evidence to the contrary.

A nice article about the likely location of McClellan's HQ can be found here (starts on page 26): https://ia801909.us.archive.org/20/items/Civil_War_Times_June_2016/Civil_War_Times_June_2016.pdf
 
The "battle-ground in front of Keedysville" is Antietam Creek.
Please show me where Hancock says that he was at Antietam creek at 9:00. He said he was in front of Keedysville about 9:00. The Burnside Order also says that he was in front of Keedysville about 9:00.
You are shifting this east away from "the battle-field" to justify you argument.
You’ve already concluded that the 8:00 order is true, and now you’re working backward. To you, Hancock can’t be near Keedysville at 9:00, because he was already there at 8:00; he must have been farther west at 9:00. You’re defining “battle-ground” the way you want to define it, in order to make your false story fit. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that Hancock meant “Antietam Creek”, you just desperately want it to be true.
 
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Sure, it might not be optimally efficient, but it's not so inefficient as to be impossible or unlikely.
I disagree. It seems very inefficient to me, with seemingly no benefit. Why not just send a staffer directly to Burnside?
Inefficiencies are not uncommon in a huge army.
A general wants to minimize inefficiency. Some army inefficiencies are natural and necessary. I don’t think this is one of those cases.
McClellan was a great organizer, but contrary to popular opinion, he wasn't perfect. :wink:
Civil War understatement of the year.
Cox did have Carman's ear but I don't know if he had an influence specifically about the location of the army's HQ. Perhaps Carman was wrong about that. Both were at the battle but didn't visit the HQ as far as I know. I'd be interested in seeing evidence to the contrary.
Carman communicated with hundreds of people who were at the battle. I’m curious how he came to the conclusion that McClellan’s HQ was the Pry House. I would think that someone would have informed him of the truth somewhere along the way.
 
Please show me where Hancock says that he was at Antietam creek at 9:00. He said he was in front of Keedysville about 9:00.

No, it says he "...arrived on the battle-ground in front of Keedysville about 9 o'clock a.m...", i.e. beyond Keedysville near McClellan. It goes further to say "...and subsequently led the advance of Franklin's corps to support the right wing...", showing that there was no further marching. It had indeed arrived at the battle-field. It was rapidly sent to reinforce Sumner, because as McClellan's 0910 notes, he feared the right was suffering.

The Sumner order fits what is known:

“General McClellan desires you to be very careful how you advance, as he fears our right is suffering….P.S. General Mansfield is killed and Hooker wounded in the foot.”

Mansfield was killed around 0800 and Hooker was wounded around 0830. The news of the loss of two corps commanders would have been fresh in McClellan's mind at 0910.

You are trying to shift the arrival time because there are two different 0910 timestamped orders in the OR, both of which describe different situations, and so one is incorrectly timestamped. The incorrectly timestamped one, in light of the arrival of Smith's division at 0900 (and it going into action at 1000), and the suffering on the right vs the successes at 0800 has to be the Burnside order. It must be an earlier order.

The Burnside Order also says that he was in front of Keedysville about 9:00.

No, the Burnside order says Franklin's corps was approaching, and 1.5 miles away. A curious thing to say when the corps had in fact arrived. He also said "So far all is going well", which is at odds with the loss of two corps commanders and a rebel counterattack that hat pushed the right back.

It must be the Burnside order that is mislabelled.

You’ve already concluded that the 8:00 order is true, and now you’re working backward. To you, Hancock can’t be near Keedysville at 9:00, because he was already there at 8:00; he must have been farther west at 9:00. You’re defining “battleground” the way you want to define it, in order to make your false story fit. There’s absolutely no reason to believe that Hancock meant “Antietam Creek”, you just desperately want it to be true.

You are confused.

The Burnside order mis-labelled as 0910. Franklin's corps, or the advance of it, arrived ca. 0900. When he ordered Burnside in, it was 1.5 miles away, say 45 minutes or an hours march. That would be consistent with this being the 0800 order that is mis-timed.

McClellan said he sent an order at 0800, and the man how carried it, Lt Wilson, recorded it in his diary.
McClellan then says after an aide confirmed nothing was happening he reissued the order. That could account for the wrong timestamp - the 0800 was simply recopied and sent again.
That same aide came back with news that Burnside didn't move on receipt, and so McClellan sent Col Sackett to ride Burnside. Sackett confirms this, and confirmed he remained there, as ordered, under 9th Corps was up the hill. He returned to McClellan's CP at 1600, but McClellan was with Sumner on the right. He also observed Col Key's two visits to Burnside.

The timings in reports are:

Burnside (9th Corps): claimed he didn't receive an attack order until 1000
Cox (9th Corps): says he received the attack order at 0900
Gerhardt (46th NY): Received order at 0900
Ferrero (Brigade): Say he advanced, on orders, at 0900
-
Benning (commanding the defending brigade): Says the Federals approached at 0800 and drove in his skirmishers at 0900
Toombs (commanding division): Says the first attack was between 0900 and 1000.
Capt Lewis (commanding 2nd Georgia): Says he was attacked at 0900

We can discount Burnside's claim, because he did attack before 1000.

McClellan may have repeated Burnside's claim in his first AAR, but it is clear from his writings that he didn't believe him, and was trying to mollify Burnside.
 
No, it says he "...arrived on the battle-ground in front of Keedysville about 9 o'clock a.m...", i.e. beyond Keedysville near McClellan.
He never says anything about McClellan.

No, it says he "...arrived on the battle-ground in front of Keedysville about 9 o'clock a.m...", i.e. beyond Keedysville near McClellan. It goes further to say "...and subsequently led the advance of Franklin's corps to support the right wing...", showing that there was no further marching. It had indeed arrived at the battle-field. It was rapidly sent to reinforce Sumner, because as McClellan's 0910 notes, he feared the right was suffering.

The Sumner order fits what is known:

“General McClellan desires you to be very careful how you advance, as he fears our right is suffering….P.S. General Mansfield is killed and Hooker wounded in the foot.”

Mansfield was killed around 0800 and Hooker was wounded around 0830. The news of the loss of two corps commanders would have been fresh in McClellan's mind at 0910.

You are trying to shift the arrival time because there are two different 0910 timestamped orders in the OR, both of which describe different situations, and so one is incorrectly timestamped. The incorrectly timestamped one, in light of the arrival of Smith's division at 0900 (and it going into action at 1000), and the suffering on the right vs the successes at 0800 has to be the Burnside order. It must be an earlier order.



No, the Burnside order says Franklin's corps was approaching, and 1.5 miles away. A curious thing to say when the corps had in fact arrived. He also said "So far all is going well", which is at odds with the loss of two corps commanders and a rebel counterattack that hat pushed the right back.

It must be the Burnside order that is mislabelled.



You are confused.

The Burnside order mis-labelled as 0910. Franklin's corps, or the advance of it, arrived ca. 0900. When he ordered Burnside in, it was 1.5 miles away, say 45 minutes or an hours march. That would be consistent with this being the 0800 order that is mis-timed.

McClellan said he sent an order at 0800, and the man how carried it, Lt Wilson, recorded it in his diary.
McClellan then says after an aide confirmed nothing was happening he reissued the order. That could account for the wrong timestamp - the 0800 was simply recopied and sent again.
That same aide came back with news that Burnside didn't move on receipt, and so McClellan sent Col Sackett to ride Burnside. Sackett confirms this, and confirmed he remained there, as ordered, under 9th Corps was up the hill. He returned to McClellan's CP at 1600, but McClellan was with Sumner on the right. He also observed Col Key's two visits to Burnside.

The timings in reports are:

Burnside (9th Corps): claimed he didn't receive an attack order until 1000
Cox (9th Corps): says he received the attack order at 0900
Gerhardt (46th NY): Received order at 0900
Ferrero (Brigade): Say he advanced, on orders, at 0900
-
Benning (commanding the defending brigade): Says the Federals approached at 0800 and drove in his skirmishers at 0900
Toombs (commanding division): Says the first attack was between 0900 and 1000.
Capt Lewis (commanding 2nd Georgia): Says he was attacked at 0900

We can discount Burnside's claim, because he did attack before 1000.

McClellan may have repeated Burnside's claim in his first AAR, but it is clear from his writings that he didn't believe him, and was trying to mollify Burnside.

I strongly urge you to read Ezra Carman’s book on the Maryland campaign.
 
I disagree. It seems very inefficient to me, with seemingly no benefit. Why not just send a staffer directly to Burnside?

A general wants to minimize inefficiency. Some army inefficiencies are natural and necessary. I don’t think this is one of those cases.

Civil War understatement of the year.

Carman communicated with hundreds of people who were at the battle. I’m curious how he came to the conclusion that McClellan’s HQ was the Pry House. I would think that someone would have informed him of the truth somewhere along the way.

Yes we disagree. Maybe the HQ was at the Pry house and maybe it was at Keedysville. Why, then, make the assumption that the HQ referred to in the order was the Ecker House?
 
McClellan then says after an aide confirmed nothing was happening he reissued the order.
Everything you write needs to be fact-checked. Wilson’s order wasn’t reissued. You made this up.

“Early on the morning of the 17th, I ordered General Burnside to form his troops and hold them in readiness to assault the bridge in his front, and to await further orders. At 8 o'clock an order was sent to him by Lieutenant Wilson, Topographical Engineers, to carry the bridge, then to gain possession of the heights beyond, and the advance along their crest upon Sharpsburg and its rear. After some time had elapsed, not hearing from him, I dispatched an aide to ascertain what had been done. The aide returned with the information that but little progress had been made. I then sent him back with an order to General Burnside to assault the bridge at once, and carry it at all hazards: The aide returned to me a second time with the report that the bridge was still in the possession of the enemy; whereupon I directed Colonel Sacket, Inspector-General, to deliver to General Burnside my positive order to push forward his troops without a moment's delay, and, if necessary, to carry the bridge at the point of the bayonet, and I ordered Colonel Sacket to remain with General Burnside and see that the order was executed promptly.”
First order: “to carry the bridge, then to gain possession of the heights beyond, and the advance along their crest upon Sharpsburg and its rear.”

Second order: “to assault the bridge at once, and carry it at all hazards”

Third order: “to push forward his troops without a moment's delay, and, if necessary, to carry the bridge at the point of the bayonet”

First order says, “start your attack”, second order says, “hurry up, don’t be timid”, third order says, “attack immediately even if you need to use bayonets”. Three clearly different orders, each one more urgent than the previous one.

EDIT: Upon a second reading, the second and third orders seem very similar, but neither of these are the Wilson order or the Burnside order in the O.R.
 
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Yes we disagree. Maybe the HQ was at the Pry house and maybe it was at Keedysville. Why, then, make the assumption that the HQ referred to in the order was the Ecker House?
Well, that’s where 67thTigers said that McClellan was during the battle. I’m just conceding his position for the sake of argument.
 
“Williams’s First Division became engaged at 7:30 a.m. and Greene’s Second Division at about 8:15 a.m. Hood’s Division fell back as the First Division was deploying, and by the united action of the two divisions, Ripley’s, Colquitt’s, and Garland’s Brigades were driven from the field before 8:45 a.m. . . It was nearing nine o’clock, and with the advance and success of the Twelfth Corps and the retreat of the Confederates into the West Woods and in the direction of Sharpsburg there was a grateful lull in the sanguinary contest, broken only by an occasional musket shot and then by the guns of Monroe’s battery, which opened fire from the plateau opposite the Dunkard church.”

—Ezra Carman, The Maryland Campaign of September 1862, pages 252-253

How can all be going well at 8:00 if Greene’s division hasn’t even entered the battle yet?

How can the right be suffering at 9:00 if all confederates have retreated from the immediate field of battle and there’s a lull in the fighting?
 
You whole argument is circular. A is B because B is A.

Hancock's brigade can't possibly have deployed to stop the charge of the 7th South Carolina because they can't have been there because of the "0910" to Burnside. There can't have been an order before the "0910" because Hancock's brigade can't have deployed against the 7th SC etc.
I find it hilarious, and very appropriate, that you used a logical fallacy in your attempt to show how I used a logical fallacy.

Try again. This time using things I actually said, not some straw man argument you made up.
 
Headquarters Army of the Potomac
September 17, 1862–9.10 a.m.

General Sumner:
General: General McClellan desires you to be very careful how you advance, as he fears our right is suffering.

I am, general, respectfully, &c.,

Geo. D. Ruggles,
Colonel, &c.

P.S.—General Mansfield is killed and Hooker wounded in the foot.

G.D.R.
If the Sumner order is accurately timestamped at 9:10 a.m., then it means that McClellan saw Sumner’s advance division get annihilated in the West Woods, and then decided that it was a good time to tell Sumner to be careful how he advanced.

So, if I have this correct, McClellan sent Sumner across the creek, and then watched the battle around the Cornfield for two hours as Sumner marched toward the action, but at no time during the march did McClellan warn Sumner to be careful until after he saw Sumner’s own men get crushed.

I feel like a joke is being played on me. No intelligent, objective person would take this ridiculous idea seriously. Nothing about it makes sense. There was obviously no 8:00 order.
 
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Well, that’s where 67thTigers said that McClellan was during the battle. I’m just conceding his position for the sake of argument.

McClellan was at several places during the battle. According to Strother (quoted in the article I linked to) he was at the Pry house from some time before 0730 until about 0800 and then spent a lot of time closer to the front, some of it presumably at the Ecker house near Porter's HQ. I would think that orders written from the Ecker house would be labeled "in the field", "Porter's HQ", or something similar. Given the fact that no such description is included in the order, and it simply states "Headquarters Army of the Potomac", I think the more likely case is that it was written at the Pry house. In which case, it was written before 0800 or so, since, as you say, McClellan would not have sent someone from Ecker to Pry to write an order that was going to be sent to Burnside.

So, given that McClellan did move around that morning, what reason is there for preferring the interpretation of "Headquarters Army of the Potomac" as referring to the Ecker house/Porter's HQ instead of the Pry house?
 
McClellan was at several places during the battle. According to Strother (quoted in the article I linked to) he was at the Pry house from some time before 0730 until about 0800 and then spent a lot of time closer to the front, some of it presumably at the Ecker house near Porter's HQ. I would think that orders written from the Ecker house would be labeled "in the field", "Porter's HQ", or something similar. Given the fact that no such description is included in the order, and it simply states "Headquarters Army of the Potomac", I think the more likely case is that it was written at the Pry house. In which case, it was written before 0800 or so, since, as you say, McClellan would not have sent someone from Ecker to Pry to write an order that was going to be sent to Burnside.

So, given that McClellan did move around that morning, what reason is there for preferring the interpretation of "Headquarters Army of the Potomac" as referring to the Ecker house/Porter's HQ instead of the Pry house?

Strother's diary refers to McClellan's HQ as near "Newcomer's brick house". The diary entry is for the 16th, and that would certainly fit with what is known about the events of the 15th-morning 16th. McClellan set up his CP on the Ecker knoll on the 15th, but his HQ wagons got hit with artillery during the raging artillery duel and ran. McClellan borrowed a rubber cape and blanket from the regular infantry and slept with them. The staff and escort went back to Keedysville, and set up the main HQ next to the German Reformed Church there.

His 1866 article adds details, but continues the to refer to Newcomer's house as where McClellan slept. It is clear this isn't a simple misnaming of the Pry House, because McClellan with staff rides from there to Hooker at the Pry House in the diary.

The question is, is this the modern Newcomer House, or another structure such as the now destroyed Ecker's House.

That the CP was on the knoll by the Ecker House is now prettymuch universally acknowledged, with even Sears placing the CP there in his latest. This doesn't distract from the possibility McClellan slept elsewhere on the night of the 16th-17th. McClellan may indeed have slept at the Pry House as the Prys later contended, but their other contentions are dodgy. The NPS I believe has removed the signage that the Pry House was HQ based on the overwhelming evidence it wasn't.
 
Yes we disagree. Maybe the HQ was at the Pry house and maybe it was at Keedysville. Why, then, make the assumption that the HQ referred to in the order was the Ecker House?

In any large HQ there are always 2 HQ's. There is Main HQ, where the staff wallahs live and worry about supplies etc., and Tac HQ, where the commanding general directs the battle.

The Main HQ was absolutely at Keedysville. Marcy set it up there on the night on the 15th.

Tac HQ, or the command post, was "in the saddle". It was McClellan and his cloud of ADC's.

With the question of where McClellan was during the battle, it wasn't at Keedysville. The AG, QMG, and all the staff wallahs were at Keedysville, under Marcy. McClellan with his ADC's etc. were forward on the battle-field.

We have this split even at platoon levels these days. The 0A HQ is the platoon commander, and the 0B is the platoon sergeant. At company and battalion levels the OC/CO is at 0A, and the 2i/c at 0B. 0A forward directing the battle, whilst 0B is at the rear directing the logistics.
 
Are you saying that in this case "Headquarters Army of the Potomac" is equivalent to wherever McClellan was at that time? Am I understanding you correctly?
 
Given the fact that no such description is included in the order, and it simply states "Headquarters Army of the Potomac", I think the more likely case is that it was written at the Pry house. In which case, it was written before 0800 or so, since, as you say, McClellan would not have sent someone from Ecker to Pry to write an order that was going to be sent to Burnside.
I’m not following your logic. I too suspect that McClellan may have been writing from the Pry House, but why would this suggest that the order was written at 8:00?

EDIT: Nevermind, you’re saying that McClellan departed the Pry House at 8:00, so he wasn’t there at 9:00.
 
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Are you saying that in this case "Headquarters Army of the Potomac" is equivalent to wherever McClellan was at that time? Am I understanding you correctly?

In this case it was printed on the notepads they used, and can't be used to conclude exactly where they were.

He's one from Custer at midday when he was with the cavalry:

m_custer_2.jpg
 
What motive does Burnside have to lie in his after action report about the starting time of the crossing? Does it really make him look any better if it only took him 5 hours to begin the Final Attack instead of 6 hours? He looks incredibly slow either way, so why risk his reputation further by lying in an official government report?

The order was sent around 9:00, the crossing started around 9:30, and Burnside probably just rounded up to 10:00, to make himself look a little bit quicker, yes, but with no malicious intent. If Burnside wanted to alleviate his blame for the slow crossing, then he could have mentioned in his report that McClellan’s staff misidentified the fords on the creek, but he didn’t.

Just because people wrote “9:00” in their reports for the time of the first crossing attempt, it doesn’t mean that the event occurred at the top of the hour on the dot. Reading the battle reports, it seems like almost every event occurred on the hour. It’s apparent that very few people were concerned with recording precise times, if they recorded times at all (of course, none of this can be blamed in the heat of battle).
 
Everyone bar Burnside, on both sides, agreed that the first attack was at 0900. There are two options:

1. Burnside was right and McClellan, Wilson, Sackett, Cox, Gerhardt, Ferrero, Benning, Toombs and Capt Lewis are wrong and engaged in a conspiracy theory.

2. Burnside was wrong, and everyone else is right.

As to the fords - the blame there is on Burnside. The rebels were still piquetting the east bank of the river on the morning of the 17th. The engineers couldn't walk through the rebel piquets to look for fords because they'd get shot or captured due the lack of invisibility cloaks. Duane and a couple of subalterns arrived around 1500 on the afternoon of the 16th to conduct their recce and found 9th Corps hadn't even broke camp to start the movement towards the bridge. The 9th Corps didn't get to the bridge that day, and an official rebuke is on record for Burnside's failure.

Capt Duane was accompanied by Rodman's troops on the 17th to go looking for a ford the locals had told them about called "Farm Ford". They found it a bit further downstream than expected. Rodman's troops had to drive in the skirmishers to allow Duane to look at the ford.
 
Everyone bar Burnside, on both sides, agreed that the first attack was at 0900. There are two options:

1. Burnside was right and McClellan, Wilson, Sackett, Cox, Gerhardt, Ferrero, Benning, Toombs and Capt Lewis are wrong and engaged in a conspiracy theory.

2. Burnside was wrong, and everyone else is right.

“Just because people wrote “9:00” in their reports for the time of the first crossing attempt, it doesn’t mean that the event occurred at the top of the hour on the dot. Reading the battle reports, it seems like almost every event occurred on the hour. It’s apparent that very few people were concerned with recording precise times, if they recorded times at all (of course, none of this can be blamed in the heat of battle).”
 
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