Braxton Bragg In The Trans-Mississippi?

Joshism

Captain
Joined
Apr 30, 2012
Location
Jupiter, FL
I'm reading Hess & Shea's book about Pea Ridge. It states that before Earl Van Dorn was placed in charge of the Confederate Trans-Mississippi Department several other candidates were considered. Henry Heth was one, but this caused an uproar since he was a Virginian and also would need to be promoted over quite a few people too.

But the second candidate was more intriguing. Braxton Bragg did a good job organizing and training Confederate soldiers in Pensacola and Mobile. Why not send him to work his magic again out west? He already outranked everyone there too.

Bragg declined, but what if he didn't or Davis wouldn't take no for an answer?

1. Does Pea Ridge turn out differently with Bragg in charge instead of Van Dorn?

2. Does Bragg get ordered to reinforce Johnston for Shiloh (as Van Dorn was), and if so does he arrive in time (as Van Dorn didn't) making a difference?

3. If Bragg stays in the Trans-Mississippi after Shiloh, for whatever reason, does he make a difference?

4. If A. S. Johnston dies and Beauregard is relieved, but Bragg is busy elsewhere who commands the Army of Mississippi/Tennessee? Hardee?
 
Great post! I have read "Braxton Bragg: The Most Hated Man in the Confederacy" by Hess. He came soooooo close to being a famous general instead of an infamous one. He might could have kept up the attack on the first day of Shiloh. He could have been somebody, he could have been a contender!
 
I think Bragg in command of the Trans-Mississippi would have been a disaster for the region. For starters, even up till the Red River Campaign discipline was for some odd reason a generals worst nightmare. Even Richard Taylor, who impressed Stonewall Jackson with his inflexibility and maintaining discipline with his ANV Louisiana Brigade, to the point of there being no stragglers because, "he didn't allow it" which Stonewall had a problem with, couldn't get the Army of the Trans-Mississippi to a proper level of discipline, which frustrated him. With Bragg and his overbearing, and flawed methods, moral would have been a serious issue, along with insubordination more widespread, Pea Ridge would have been a crushing defeat if not route for the Trans-Mississippi Confederacy.

Little Rock, along with most of Arkansas would have fell before 1863, and there would be the Union Army of the Frontier on the doorsteps of Texas, if in Texas before the summer of 1863. Bragg would have blamed everyone but himself, probably have enlisted men and officers constantly trying to assassinate him, (in many Texan memoirs I've come across accounts of this being done with Majors and Colonels who were strict, blame everyone else disciplinarians like Bragg), and it would have been an all around mess.

On the plus side, the Army of Tennessee might have had better fortunes, depending on who was where at what time. But personally I have a hard time seeing Bragg in the Trans-Mississippi, it's highly possible if he had been sent there he would have been gunning for the first chance to back east worse than Van Dorn.

I hold Van Dorn in the lowest esteem possible, as a cavalry officer he was okay, (notice I'm not saying good, or great), but an Army commander he was a disaster in my book. Bragg I feel was a better Army commander than Van Dorn, he certainly had a better head for logistics, which I think was an alien concept to Van Dorn, however his brand of disciplining troops and subordinates, blaming them for his failures, and the independent streak a mile wide in troops stationed in the Trans-Mississippi that faded with their brother who went east, probably would have resulted in a disaster of epic proportions against the Union's General Curtis, and probably Bragg perishing in a hilarious "accident" of sorts. I've yet to read of instance of insubordinate Texan, Arkansan, or Louisianan enlisted men and NCO's succeeding in killing a superior officer, but Bragg's character would have resulted in so many attempts that one would eventually hit the mark.

But that's view.
 
You mean Bragg, sentencing a man to a firing squad for shooting a chicken, was too harsh? I have come to the conclusion that you just cannot defend the man. I really think he should have been on some kind of medicinal cannabis.
 
I'm reading Hess & Shea's book about Pea Ridge. It states that before Earl Van Dorn was placed in charge of the Confederate Trans-Mississippi Department several other candidates were considered. Henry Heth was one, but this caused an uproar since he was a Virginian and also would need to be promoted over quite a few people too.

But the second candidate was more intriguing. Braxton Bragg did a good job organizing and training Confederate soldiers in Pensacola and Mobile. Why not send him to work his magic again out west? He already outranked everyone there too.

Bragg declined, but what if he didn't or Davis wouldn't take no for an answer?

1. Does Pea Ridge turn out differently with Bragg in charge instead of Van Dorn?

2. Does Bragg get ordered to reinforce Johnston for Shiloh (as Van Dorn was), and if so does he arrive in time (as Van Dorn didn't) making a difference?

3. If Bragg stays in the Trans-Mississippi after Shiloh, for whatever reason, does he make a difference?

4. If A. S. Johnston dies and Beauregard is relieved, but Bragg is busy elsewhere who commands the Army of Mississippi/Tennessee? Hardee?
1-would think so, Bragg probally would have prefered, the single front suggested Price. As historically Price had success on his front to see McCulloch's fail dismally, it would be a different outcome, whether it ended up overall a success, hard to say, but it's difficult to see amore dismal return on the effort then Van Dorn splitting the forces and lack of performance from the 2nd wing......

2- a wild card.....van Dorn is ordered to do so in part because he failed at PR and continued to retreat. A success or draw at PR I think he doesn't shift troops, if had similar failure as Van Dorn he has roughly the same logistical problems shifting troops east.

3- Probally, I see him being more cautious then Van Dorn, but probally more active then Holmes, Hindman, and Smith

4-Let them have Holmes or Smith:D
 
You mean Bragg, sentencing a man to a firing squad for shooting a chicken, was too harsh? I have come to the conclusion that you just cannot defend the man. I really think he should have been on some kind of medicinal cannabis.
I thought the same thing, but I'm having second thoughts:
Bragg has become infamous for the supposed numerous executions of soldiers for trivial reasons. However, one of the most frequently cited stories isn't what I expected it to be at all. Quoting from Earl J. Hess' Braxton Bragg: The Most Hated Man of the Confederacy:

"An incident happened on the march that marred Bragg's reputation forever. Beauregard issued strict orders not to fire a gun during the evacuation, and in his determination to stop violations of it Bragg went too far. Because several rumors took the place of accurate reports, exactly what happened has long remained obscure. According to some versions, a Rebel soldier shot at a chicken and instead hit a black child, but another version identified the victim as a man rather than a child. In some stories Bragg executed the soldier for killing an innocent civilian rather than for shooting an animal. Another variation had it that the man tried to steal roasting ears of corn. As rumors circulated through the army and made their way into civilian society, Bragg's name became a household word associated with executing Confederate soldiers for trivial reasons in the perspective of many Southerners.

Fortunately Giles Buckner Cooke provided reliable evidence to lay bare these stories. As a member of Bragg's staff during the retreat from Corinth, he was well placed to see and hear everything that happened at army headquarters. On May 30, the day after pulling away from the town, a guard brought a soldier he had arrested to Bragg's headquarters and accused him of shooting a hog. The man, whom Cooke refused to identify by name in his diary, belonged to Charles L. Lumsden's Alabama battery, attached to James R. Chalmers's brigade of Jones Withers's Division. The accused said his battery had joined the army only a couple of weeks before, and he knew nothing of the order that prohibited the firing of weapons. "Gen. Bragg - after hearing all he had to say - decided that it was stealing besides disobeying orders, and ordered the man who brought the accusation against him - to take him out and shoot him." The accused understandably became desperate. "I didn't know that it was [against orders]-Have mercy on me - Oh: Gen. please don't shoot me!" he cried.

Cooke overheard everything and was shocked. He made arrangements for Withers to see Bragg and intercede for the man, but Withers did not make a strong case for clemency even though, according to Cooke's interpretation of what Withers said, the division commander favored the killing of the hog. So Cooke had to think of something else to save the man. He persuaded Bragg to postpose the execution until the battery commander could be located. Cooke delivered the message personally, "got there in time to save him and delivered the order." Then Cooke found and took an officer of the battery to see Bragg. The general questioned him minutely concerning the accused man's character. Once the officer promised to take charge of him and make sure he obeyed orders, Bragg released the accused to the officer's custody. Cooke assumed he would be tried by a court-martial and probably acquitted. The staff officer understandably concluded he had saved the poor man's life.

Cooke wrote a brief, unpublished memoir of his service in the West that provided a slightly different version of the details in this story. He recalled that Bragg was "sitting up against a tree in the woods" when the man was brought to him and that the accused was "almost in a state of collapse" as he was led away to be executed. Cooke saw that the soldiers who were within hearing of the proceedings were reacting very badly. He said to another staff member, "if this man is shot it is the uprooting of Christianity." Cooke was not certain if Bragg heard this remark, but the general called Cooke immediately after and told him to countermand the order."
 
Two things that jump out on negative side

1 not seeing how a North Carolinian would play much less eastern then a Virginian out west

2 Don't think a strict disciplinarian would have played well with frontier volunteers either.
 
Last edited:
Two things that jump out on negative side

1 not seeing how a North Carolinian would play much less eastern then a Virginian out west

2 Don't think a strict disciplinarian would have played well with frontier volunteers either.
1) One could scarcely do much worse than another North Carolinian in the Trans-Miss, Theophilus H. Holmes.

2) You have a point, though Richard Taylor did very well. Earl Van Dorn was quite lax on most issues, and we can see how things turned out there. Maybe Davis chooses Harry Heth after all?
 
1) One could scarcely do much worse than another North Carolinian in the Trans-Miss, Theophilus H. Holmes.

2) You have a point, though Richard Taylor did very well. Earl Van Dorn was quite lax on most issues, and we can see how things turned out there. Maybe Davis chooses Harry Heth after all?
I always took it Holmes wasn't all that well received or beloved either
 
I'm reading Hess & Shea's book about Pea Ridge. It states that before Earl Van Dorn was placed in charge of the Confederate Trans-Mississippi Department several other candidates were considered. Henry Heth was one, but this caused an uproar since he was a Virginian and also would need to be promoted over quite a few people too.

But the second candidate was more intriguing. Braxton Bragg did a good job organizing and training Confederate soldiers in Pensacola and Mobile. Why not send him to work his magic again out west? He already outranked everyone there too.

Bragg declined, but what if he didn't or Davis wouldn't take no for an answer?

1. Does Pea Ridge turn out differently with Bragg in charge instead of Van Dorn?

2. Does Bragg get ordered to reinforce Johnston for Shiloh (as Van Dorn was), and if so does he arrive in time (as Van Dorn didn't) making a difference?

3. If Bragg stays in the Trans-Mississippi after Shiloh, for whatever reason, does he make a difference?

4. If A. S. Johnston dies and Beauregard is relieved, but Bragg is busy elsewhere who commands the Army of Mississippi/Tennessee? Hardee?
I don't think anyone could all answer all those questions. Not an expert on Shiloh but Grant had two major advantages over any Confederate commander:
1. Powerful river gun boats
2. Timely larger scale reinforcements from General Burl and the USN dominated the the local rivers.
If I recall correctly Bragg's only major victory was at Chickimungua and arguably while not Bragg's fault was only a temporary victory.
Leftyhunter
 
I don't think anyone could all answer all those questions. Not an expert on Shiloh but Grant had two major advantages over any Confederate commander:
1. Powerful river gun boats
2. Timely larger scale reinforcements from General Burl and the USN dominated the the local rivers.
If I recall correctly Bragg's only major victory was at Chickimungua and arguably while not Bragg's fault was only a temporary victory.
Leftyhunter
Grant was also helped by the lack of discipline in the hastily assembled confederate army (which started immediately looting federal campps instead of continuing the attacks), the dense terrain which made command and control a nightmare, and the fact that the Confederates had 2 commanders leading their army, with different command styles...and one of them got himself killed halfway through the first day.
Bragg's grand plan for the Chickamauga campaign was sound. If only Hindman hadn't been a stubborn primadonna and carried out his orders, they would have succeded in destroying XIV Corps in McLemore's Cove. And his plan on the final day could have worked...if D. H. Hill's curse did not strike and the messanger came through to him.
I am of the opinion that Chickamauga was Longstreet's victory more than anyone elses. But Bragg deserves a lot more credit than he normally gets.
 
Grant was also helped by the lack of discipline in the hastily assembled confederate army (which started immediately looting federal campps instead of continuing the attacks), the dense terrain which made command and control a nightmare, and the fact that the Confederates had 2 commanders leading their army, with different command styles...and one of them got himself killed halfway through the first day.
Bragg's grand plan for the Chickamauga campaign was sound. If only Hindman hadn't been a stubborn primadonna and carried out his orders, they would have succeded in destroying XIV Corps in McLemore's Cove. And his plan on the final day could have worked...if D. H. Hill's curse did not strike and the messanger came through to him.
I am of the opinion that Chickamauga was Longstreet's victory more than anyone elses. But Bragg deserves a lot more credit than he normally gets.
My understanding is that the Confederate troops at Shiloh were very hungery and graping a bite to eat couldn't be helped.
Getting all the generals on the same page or command and control issues seemed to plague both armies.
Certainly possible that the Confederate Army could of done better at Chickimungua.
Leftyhunter
 
My understanding is that the Confederate troops at Shiloh were very hungery and graping a bite to eat couldn't be helped.
Getting all the generals on the same page or command and control issues seemed to plague both armies.
Certainly possible that the Confederate Army could of done better at Chickimungua.
Leftyhunter
Saying it helped Grant as much as it hurt him.
Also, this is a tangent, but find it odd Grant's army was split into divisions and no corps structure. Odd because Corps were being formed in the East. Meanwhile the Confederates were still operating at Division level in the east and the AoM was divided into Corps (thanks to Beauregard's Napoleon obsessions)
 
Saying it helped Grant as much as it hurt him.
Also, this is a tangent, but find it odd Grant's army was split into divisions and no corps structure. Odd because Corps were being formed in the East. Meanwhile the Confederates were still operating at Division level in the east and the AoM was divided into Corps (thanks to Beauregard's Napoleon obsessions)
I feel like Hardee would be the best person for the job to command the army of the west.
He is well-liked by LA and AR troops.
 
Should Bragg achieve a victory at Pea Ridge (which is still a very likely location for a battle), it seems possible the regiments which eventually formed Sherman's and Prentiss's divisions will be sent to Missouri. Whether this will make Grant more cautious in his advance toward Corinth, I'm not sure.

If Johnston is not expecting the Trans-Mississippi forces to join him, would Corinth still be where the Confederates concentrate, as opposed to somewhere like Murfreesboro or Columbia?
 
I think Bragg in command of the Trans-Mississippi would have been a disaster for the region. For starters, even up till the Red River Campaign discipline was for some odd reason a generals worst nightmare. Even Richard Taylor, who impressed Stonewall Jackson with his inflexibility and maintaining discipline with his ANV Louisiana Brigade, to the point of there being no stragglers because, "he didn't allow it" which Stonewall had a problem with, couldn't get the Army of the Trans-Mississippi to a proper level of discipline, which frustrated him. With Bragg and his overbearing, and flawed methods, moral would have been a serious issue, along with insubordination more widespread, Pea Ridge would have been a crushing defeat if not route for the Trans-Mississippi Confederacy.

Little Rock, along with most of Arkansas would have fell before 1863, and there would be the Union Army of the Frontier on the doorsteps of Texas, if in Texas before the summer of 1863. Bragg would have blamed everyone but himself, probably have enlisted men and officers constantly trying to assassinate him, (in many Texan memoirs I've come across accounts of this being done with Majors and Colonels who were strict, blame everyone else disciplinarians like Bragg), and it would have been an all around mess.

On the plus side, the Army of Tennessee might have had better fortunes, depending on who was where at what time. But personally I have a hard time seeing Bragg in the Trans-Mississippi, it's highly possible if he had been sent there he would have been gunning for the first chance to back east worse than Van Dorn.

I hold Van Dorn in the lowest esteem possible, as a cavalry officer he was okay, (notice I'm not saying good, or great), but an Army commander he was a disaster in my book. Bragg I feel was a better Army commander than Van Dorn, he certainly had a better head for logistics, which I think was an alien concept to Van Dorn, however his brand of disciplining troops and subordinates, blaming them for his failures, and the independent streak a mile wide in troops stationed in the Trans-Mississippi that faded with their brother who went east, probably would have resulted in a disaster of epic proportions against the Union's General Curtis, and probably Bragg perishing in a hilarious "accident" of sorts. I've yet to read of instance of insubordinate Texan, Arkansan, or Louisianan enlisted men and NCO's succeeding in killing a superior officer, but Bragg's character would have resulted in so many attempts that one would eventually hit the mark.

But that's view.
Very well stated.

If Braxton Bragg thought wrangling the AoT was tough, imagine him trying to tussle with Richard Taylor, Edmund Kirby-Smith, Sterling Price, Thomas C. Hindman, Thomas Green, Alfred Mouton, J.O. Shelby, William Clark Quantrill and the littany of lesser names who acted quasi-independently during the Bayou Teche, Red River, Camden Expedition, and Price Expedition campaigns.

Guys like Forrest had the decency to threaten Bragg first, Bragg mouths off to the wrong Bushwhacker chieftan and he winds up hanging from his toes somewhere in southern Arkansas after losing most of the state and blaming everybody else for it.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top