continuation of book chat:
[moderator] 8:37 pm: Ok, shane, nice observations, want to do a 'me'?
[Johan Steele] 8:37 pm: sorry... me
[william42] 8:38 pm: me
[Johan Steele] 8:38 pm: The comparison to the percentage of troops to population when compared to Normandy...
[moderator] 8:38 pm: OK> nevermind, as long as it'd just 4 of us (what went wrong?), we might dispense with the "me"s
[milhistbuff1] 8:39 pm: William, well, that depends
on who you read, and what the sources
are, the closer people are to an event, the
more extremely held are the convictions
based on their own knowledge
[Johan Steele] 8:39 pm: The comments about the war continuing for another 2 years were quite apt...
[william42] 8:39 pm: John Bachelder went from a landscape painter to the supreme historian of Gettysburg, just because he was so persistent, and folks seemed to let him go with it.
[moderator] 8:39 pm: I also never thought of that many other countries' armies studied the battles of the CW
[Johan Steele] 8:40 pm: As a critical strategic factor of the War Gettysburg pales next to Vicksburg
[moderator] 8:40 pm: will, we are on chap 1, bach apears in chap 5
[william42] 8:41 pm: I think Gettysburg is probably close to the “mother of all battles” worldwide.
[milhistbuff1] 8:41 pm: Frankly I'm not surprised, i'm sure the imperial powers passed on the knowledge gleaned from the CW digests we sent to every military academy in europe, surely some of the colonials attended at various points
[william42] 8:41 pm: Sorry, I'll go get my book.
[milhistbuff1] 8:42 pm: and later translated the info into their native language, be it, bantu, Arabic, etc
[moderator] 8:42 pm: was certainly a model for warfare since the Crimean
[Johan Steele] 8:42 pm: Mothre of all battles... no; it doesn't even compare in numbers engaged... that's one thing I've never understood.
[moderator] 8:42 pm: xxx
[Johan Steele] 8:42 pm: Montegra was as large though IIRC not as bloody
[william42] 8:43 pm: Ok, I stand corrected.
[Johan Steele] 8:43 pm: me...
[moderator] 8:43 pm: so to each of you, what, befre this book did Gettysburg mean to you, and has your impreesions changed ?
[Johan Steele] 8:44 pm: ok one thing of interest about chapter 1 to me was that it started as a foundation that the author built upon throughout the rest of the work.
[Johan Steele] 8:45 pm: I didn't realize just how much history had been distrorted both intentionally and unintentionally
[moderator] 8:45 pm: XXX, but when you hear the word, Gettysburg, what first comes to mind?
[Johan Steele] 8:46 pm: THe Iron Brigade double quicking through those woods to pitch into the CS
[william42] 8:46 pm: The book has changed the way I think of the history of the battle. It didn’t occur to me really that nothing was really documented at all except for some soldiers’ diaries, and that there was never one recognizable “History of the battle of Gettysburg”.
[moderator] 8:46 pm: go whoever
[william42] 8:47 pm: I mean one “Factual, Indisputable History of the Battle of Gettysburg”
[Johan Steele] 8:48 pm: A battle is a lot like a car wreck. A lot od different perspective that often contradict each other
[moderator] 8:48 pm: "History is created to make sense out of the past"
[moderator] 8:49 pm: Chap 2: "History is created to make sense out of the past"
[Johan Steele] 8:49 pm: As an example I've read three seperate accounts of Iuka that are dramaticly different... & Gettysburg makes Iuja look like a bar fight
[Johan Steele] 8:49 pm: sorry Iuka
[milhistbuff1] 8:49 pm: make sense or cover up?, we cannot forget that history is written by the victors, in this case, meaning those most influential and longest living
[moderator] 8:50 pm: so what is the distinction between truthfulness and limited perspective?
[william42] 8:51 pm: To the particpants probably none.
[Johan Steele] 8:51 pm: in particular those longest living... or who wrote first the most
[Honored Dead]: 30th_il has entered at 8:51 pm
[30th_il] 8:51 pm: Hello...
[milhistbuff1] 8:51 pm: I disagree, there were some who served at the highest levels and knew what lee did, Walter H Taylor for instance
[moderator] 8:51 pm: how do exaggeration, politics, selective sources, time and memory influence our perception of the history
[Johan Steele] 8:52 pm: too much.
[milhistbuff1] 8:52 pm: it eliminates those sources that don't agree with the authors point of view
[william42] 8:52 pm: Hey Matt.
[30th_il] 8:52 pm: What is the topic?
[moderator] 8:53 pm: Hi 30th, we are using screen names to simplifie. we are on Chap 2
[Johan Steele] 8:53 pm: What this book did for me was to highlight and explain how history gets written; how it is distorted both intenionally and unintentionally
[moderator] 8:54 pm: hundreds of different variations of the same event
[william42] 8:54 pm: Thought I was gonna have to leave to get my puppy out but I see he already whizzed on the carpet.
[milhistbuff1] 8:54 pm: that may be, but only by seeing the entire historical record can you know what happened
[moderator] 8:55 pm: ha!
[moderator] 8:55 pm: what about Norton's account of vincent Strong?
[Johan Steele] 8:55 pm: details that are monumental to one man or group of men may be insignificant to another from their perspective
[30th_il] 8:55 pm: Hmmmm, I am afraid i haven't read the book so I will be mosey-ing along....
[milhistbuff1] 8:56 pm: so no one bias gets too strong
[Honored Dead]: 30th_il has left at 8:56 pm
[william42] 8:56 pm: Timeout for a second plz. Can anybody tell me how to use the PM feature here?
[moderator] 8:57 pm: Norton gave info about where Strong was or wasn't, others gave different accounts.
[Johan Steele] 8:57 pm: sorry; don't know here
[Honored Dead]: Johan Steele has left at 8:57 pm
[moderator] 8:57 pm: PM - click on the member and message them
[william42] 8:58 pm: Thanks
[moderator->william42] 8:58 pm: like this
[Honored Dead]: Johan Steele has entered at 8:58 pm
[milhistbuff1] 8:58 pm: Vincent was hit early on though, so apart from initial dispositions is he really relevant to the fight on LRT?
[Johan Steele] 8:59 pm: Gents; i must leave you. God Bless and enjoy the discussion
[william42] 9:00 pm: It seems Norton thought he was extremely relevant, by the effort he put in to get his commander recognized.
[moderator] 9:00 pm: OK, any comment about Warren's story that there was nobody on LRT, tho others disagreed, and Warren got a big statue?
[william42] 9:00 pm: See ya Shane
[milhistbuff1] 9:01 pm: Take care Shane
[william42] 9:02 pm: Wasn't it the Pennsylvanians who put that up?
[Honored Dead]: Johan Steele has left at 9:02 pm
[milhistbuff1] 9:02 pm: Warren was the one to get reinforcements dispatched on his own authority, so without it LRT, crucial or not could have easily been lost if Weed and O Rorke werent up top above vincents bde
[moderator] 9:03 pm: OK, the chapter close with the assertion that "the more dramatic version of a story, the one we WANT to believe, becomes the accepted version."
[moderator] 9:03 pm: What do you think of that?
[william42] 9:03 pm: Considering human nature, I think that's pretty dead on.
[william42] 9:05 pm: I think this chat forum will attract more members as it goes along. I wouldn't go by the first nights turnout.
[moderator] 9:05 pm: OK, on to chapter 3; aggenda and 'spin'?
[Honored Dead]: ole has entered at 9:05 pm
[william42] 9:06 pm: Hey Ole.
[moderator] 9:06 pm: will, well we are going to run out of cahapters before they come in, they all knew the start date and time.
[moderator] 9:06 pm: go ole
[ole] 9:06 pm: me
[moderator] 9:07 pm: you, you're late
[ole] 9:07 pm: Told you about start date and time. Trash night and "Lost."
[moderator] 9:08 pm: you prefer 'Lost' to this outstanding discussion?
[ole] 9:08 pm: Time with dear one.
[moderator] 9:09 pm: Chap 3 : some common myths, wesley culp, Gordon and Barlow, handcock and Hunt, Who shot Reynolds?, Shoes.
[moderator] 9:10 pm: Anyone want to address any of these?
[william42] 9:10 pm: Did anybody have any idea that the history of the battle was so malleable?
[ole] 9:11 pm: Me
[milhistbuff1] 9:11 pm: yes but not as to the extent
[moderator] 9:11 pm: go ole
[ole] 9:12 pm: Refresh my memory. What was the Hancock and Hunt one?
[moderator] 9:13 pm: Hancock told Hunt to keep firing, Hunt wanted to conserve ammo fo the close battle, etc.
[Honored Dead]: milhistbuff1 has left at 9:13 pm
[ole] 9:13 pm: Ah, yes.
[Honored Dead]: milhistbuff1 has entered at 9:13 pm
[milhistbuff1] 9:14 pm: gotta run, early day tomorrow, will definitely be back
[william42] 9:14 pm: See ya Matt.
[ole] 9:14 pm: Me.
[moderator] 9:15 pm: go ole
[Honored Dead]: william42 has left at 9:15 pm
[Honored Dead]: milhistbuff1 has left at 9:15 pm
[Honored Dead]: william42 has entered at 9:16 pm
[william42] 9:16 pm: I just got kicked out.
[moderator] 9:16 pm: go ole
[ole] 9:16 pm: I was a bit disappointed that Desjardin didn't dive into some serious myths about the battle. Who shot Reynolds doesn't qualify as a myth -- more a mystery.
[moderator] 9:17 pm: Well, what did you have in mind?
[moderator] 9:18 pm: go ole
[ole] 9:18 pm: The Sickles/Meade controversy, for one. Although that isn't a myth either, but there are a lot of myths floating around about it.
[moderator] 9:19 pm: That's the next chapter, keep tuned.
[moderator] 9:19 pm: xxx
[ole] 9:19 pm: Which chapter are we on.
[william42] 9:19 pm: I think chapter 3, not sure.
[moderator] 9:19 pm: No comment on the fantastic Barlow, Gordon story?
[moderator] 9:20 pm: Wesley Culp?
[moderator] 9:20 pm: Shoes?
[moderator] 9:22 pm: OK, I have one- is Gettysburg 'shoes' in anyway equivalent to Iraq ' WMD'?
[moderator] 9:23 pm: will the 'WMD' myth last as long as the 'shoes' myth?
[ole] 9:23 pm: Me
[moderator] 9:23 pm: go ole
[ole] 9:24 pm: First you'd have to accept that WMD = myth. Then you'd have to accept that the Rebs really expected to find shoes a few days after others had been through town.
[moderator] 9:26 pm: So this is a matter of who gets the upper hand as to how the history is passed down, isn't it, just the theme of the book.
[william42] 9:26 pm: I have to search the book so I'm a little slow. The order was for Pettigrew to look for supplies (including shoes) and somehow the shoes part was embellished over the years until it became the primary cause for entering Gettysburg and the battle that followed.
[ole] 9:27 pm: Lost Cause. Shoeless rebels.
[william42] 9:28 pm: It still is a popular theory. In 2000 I worked for a boss who knew I studied the war, and he said one day, "That whole Gettysburg thing was over shoes wasn't it?"
[moderator] 9:28 pm: Ole tht's chap 6 I think
[ole] 9:29 pm: Such is the nature of the myth --- repeated until it becomes history.
continued, next post...........