Restricted Board votes to remove Confederate monument from Linn Park - AL

W. Richardson

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Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
Nobody told you you can't and nobody is going to. Whatever Walmart, etc. do is their right and trust me, if it hurts the bottom line, they will rethink things. Take a deep breath. The sky is not falling.


Actually I have never seen any Confederate flags in a Wal Mart, I have never looked either, something does not seem right about a Chinese made Confederate Flag..............lol

1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

W. Richardson

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Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
Why remove it. That seems to be an odd sentiment after all you have said about not removing heritage.

If it is a personal tombstone I am not for removal, if it is a monument on government property I am for removal to a appropriate and approved location as to Confederate Monuments/Memorials, but this is not a Confederate Memorial/Monument so after second thought let it stay ..........I wonder why it has not recently been defaced?


1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 
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W. Richardson

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Location
Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
The Confederacy was a part of American history so if that i what you meant, then the answer 1 is yes.
Why and how the Confederate part of American history should be remembered is the issue.


I don't think why and how the Confederacy became a part of American history has been hidden and to my knowledge is being remembered as to why and how.......
I learned way back, and with my age of 56 I mean way back.......lol......I learned why, and once I studied history and researched history I have learned a great deal more on all aspects of history that were hidden (or ignored) way back when I was in school.

The real issue is that certain people and certain groups want it totally eradicated from history.


1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

W. Richardson

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Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
And again I ask: why?
why remove this one and not other ones?

And again................. if it is a monument on government property I am for removal to an appropriate and approved location as to Confederate Monuments/Memorials.......which is what I have stated in many post, which IIRC is what many African-Americans have called for.


1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

W. Richardson

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Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
I disagree. This is all about why and how different parts of US history should be memorialized.


And you are entitled to disagree Ned, I don't force anyone to agree or disagree with me. I leave that up to each individual and I am totally fine with you disagreeing, I am sure I disagree with you on some subjects.


1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

NedBaldwin

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California
And again................. if it is a monument on government property I am for removal to an appropriate ...which is what I have stated in many post
I didn't ask what you have said, I asked why. You haven answered the 'why' part.

and approved location as to Confederate Monuments/Memorials
What is an "appropriate and approved location" for a monument like this?
 

Rob9641

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Maryland
I don't think why and how the Confederacy became a part of American history has been hidden and to my knowledge is being remembered as to why and how.......
I learned way back, and with my age of 56 I mean way back.......lol......I learned why, and once I studied history and researched history I have learned a great deal more on all aspects of history that were hidden (or ignored) way back when I was in school.

The real issue is that certain people and certain groups want it totally eradicated from history.


View attachment 72546
Respectfully,
William

Whoa, hold on. Are you saying you think Confederate history has been hidden? You can't be serious, if that is what you are saying. If you are saying it isn't taught to kids in school, I think you'd better check the history of how Confederate history was taught in the South. The Confederate view of things was part of plenty of school books, plenty of commemoration days and parades. Personally, I think it was a bit distorted, but Lord knows it was not hidden.

The real issue is that this is the 21st century, not the 19th or early 20th. The romanticized view of the Confederacy does not hold the sway it did because it does not deserve to. It was the myth spun by those who lost because they had to have something to hold onto or they had to believe they and theirs fought in vain, and they could not take that. The truth is that the Confederacy was founded to preserve and expand slavery and after that cause was lost, their heirs came into power and established "slavery light" through the black codes and other oppression. These people taught the romanticized view of the Confederacy for 100 years and taught it very well. But it was not the whole truth.

It's the whole truth that needs to be taught, not eradicated. That truth definitely includes the skill and bravery of those who fought for the Confederacy, but that's not all there is to the truth. Hold onto the memory of their skill and bravery but let the rest of it be told, too.
 

W. Richardson

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Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
No I did not say that I was saying it had not been hidden.

I thought I was clear in what I said.....................

"I don't think why and how the Confederacy became a part of American history has been hidden and to my knowledge is being remembered as to why and how.......
I learned way back, and with my age of 56 I mean way back.......lol......I learned why, and once I studied history and researched history I have learned a great deal more on all aspects of history that were hidden (or ignored) way back when I was in school."

So I am not sure where you came up with that I was saying that Confederate history was being hidden. When I stated... I learned things "later when I started doing my own studying and researching" that had been hidden or ignored when I was in school way back then I was not talking about the Confederacy.........If I gave you that impression I apologize to you for your misunderstanding.

I am all for all the truth to be told and remembered on the Confederacy, the Civil War, and history.



1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

Rob9641

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No I did not say that I was saying it had not been hidden.

I thought I was clear in what I said.....................

"I don't think why and how the Confederacy became a part of American history has been hidden and to my knowledge is being remembered as to why and how.......
I learned way back, and with my age of 56 I mean way back.......lol......I learned why, and once I studied history and researched history I have learned a great deal more on all aspects of history that were hidden (or ignored) way back when I was in school."

So I am not sure where you came up with that I was saying that Confederate history was being hidden. When I stated... I learned things "later when I started doing my own studying and researching" that had been hidden or ignored when I was in school way back then I was not talking about the Confederacy.........If I gave you that impression I apologize to you for your misunderstanding.

I am all for all the truth to be told and remembered on the Confederacy, the Civil War, and history.



View attachment 72553
Respectfully,
William

You're phrasing confused me. My apologies, I just misread you.
 

ForeverFree

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However I have a couple of questions...........

1. Is not Confederate History American history?
2. Does the push back by African-Americans require the push away and removing Confederate or other American Monuments/Memorials? Am I not also American and deserve to have my history, American and Confederate remembered?


Respectfully,
William

The question is, how do we commemorate Confederate history? For many people, Confederate monuments as they are today present a celebratory and sanitized image of the Confederacy, an image which fails to reflect the fact that the Confederate nation was, in part, dedicated to the idea that African Americans should be enslaved.

We see it here on the forum all the time: the Confederacy is controversial. People have different memories of it. For many people, the commemorative landscape today offers a one-sided view of the CSA, and that is unacceptable to them.

How do we deal with this? I don't have an answer. But I can say that in the long run, a commemorative landscape that contains a one-sided view of the history is not tenable. If people feel the landscape is unfair and unbalanced, then they will seek to change it, and removal seems to be a quick and easy way to accomplish the goal. I don't think that is the answer myself, but if that is not the answer, then we need to have discussions about alternatives.

- Alan
 

E_just_E

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The question is, how do we commemorate Confederate history? For many people, Confederate monuments as they are today present a celebratory and sanitized image of the Confederacy, an image which fails to reflect the fact that the Confederate nation was, in part, dedicated to the idea that African Americans should be enslaved.

We see it here on the forum all the time: the Confederacy is controversial. People have different memories of it. For many people, the commemorative landscape today offers a one-sided view of the CSA, and that is unacceptable to them.

How do we deal with this? I don't have an answer.

- Alan

Today I was at the National Civil Rights Museum at Lorraine Motel in Memphis (highly recommended, btw) and one of the exhibits had Martin Luther King's full "I had a dream" speech. I think that Dr. King has the answer:

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

Both sides need to be willing to accept the points of view of the other side and sit down on the table. Too bad that, close to 50 years after that speech, it still has not happened
 

W. Richardson

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Location
Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
The question is, how do we commemorate Confederate history? For many people, Confederate monuments as they are today present a celebratory and sanitized image of the Confederacy, an image which fails to reflect the fact that the Confederate nation was, in part, dedicated to the idea that African Americans should be enslaved.

We see it here on the forum all the time: the Confederacy is controversial. People have different memories of it. For many people, the commemorative landscape today offers a one-sided view of the CSA, and that is unacceptable to them.

How do we deal with this? I don't have an answer. But I can say that in the long run, a commemorative landscape that contains a one-sided view of the history is not tenable. If people feel the landscape is unfair and unbalanced, then they will seek to change it, and removal seems to be a quick and easy way to accomplish the goal. I don't think that is the answer myself, but if that is not the answer, then we need to have discussions about alternatives.

- Alan

I can agree with much of what you say Alan. We do need a more balanced landscape, but there are monuments/memorials to African-Americans, to USCT in the Civil War, not as many as they should be.

So to make it balance we should remove all monuments/memorials to the Confederacy but allow the others to stay? That balances history how? Is it a one-sided view of history? How many monuments/memorials are they to Grant, Lincoln,Sherman,...Etc...Etc.....and to Union soldiers.
I also do not know have an answer either Alan, the quick and easy way isn't always the best way. Pat and I voiced early and often in this argument that dialog and discussion is best for all involved, but I have not seen much if any attempt from either side of doing that.

Alan could you elaborate more on how you feel the situation is a one-sided commemorative landscape? If you mean more African-American Monuments/Memorials in the South I agree.

1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

W. Richardson

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Location
Mt. Gilead, North Carolina
Today I was at the National Civil Rights Museum at Lorraine Motel in Memphis (highly recommended, btw) and one of the exhibits had Martin Luther King's full "I had a dream" speech. I think that Dr. King has the answer:

I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood.

Both sides need to be willing to accept the points of view of the other side and sit down on the table. Too bad that, close to 50 years after that speech, it still has not happened



Martin Luther King is and has been my hero for a great many years. I was but a young lad when he made his famous "I Have a Dream" speech and you are correct that it is sad that we all have not yet grasped his meaning of peace, love, acceptance, and tolerance. Without those we shall never overcome the hatred, the racism, and the injustice to all.

1st National Confederate Flag   1.jpg

Respectfully,
William
 

ForeverFree

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District of Columbia
Alan could you elaborate more on how you feel the situation is a one-sided commemorative landscape? If you mean more African-American Monuments/Memorials in the South I agree.

View attachment 72580
Respectfully,
William

Well this is an example. This is one of several monuments to CSA President Jefferson Davis.

jeffersondavis.jpg

Large Davis memorial on Monument Avenue in Richmond, Virginia

Let's say I am a student who wants to learn about Davis in his capacity as president of the CSA. I would read that Davis was from Mississippi. In its secession declaration - which was Mississippi's declaration of independence from the Union - it states: (from "A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.")

In the momentous step, which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.
Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product, which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization. That blow has been long aimed at the institution, and was at the point of reaching its consummation.

There was no choice left us but submission to the mandates of abolition, or a dissolution of the Union, whose principles had been subverted to work out our ruin. That we do not overstate the dangers to our institution, a reference to a few facts will sufficiently prove...

The student would read what Davis said in his farewell address to the Senate, in January 1861:

…if I had not believed there was justifiable cause (for secession); if I had thought that Mississippi was acting without sufficient provocation, or without an existing necessity, I should still… because of my allegiance to the State… have been bound by her action. I, however, may be permitted to say that I do think she has justifiable cause, and I approve of her act.

...I conferred with her people before that act was taken, counseled them then that if the state of things which they apprehended should exist when the convention met, they should take the action which they have now adopted…
It has been a conviction of pressing necessity, it has been a belief that we are to be deprived in the Union of the rights which our fathers bequeathed to us, which has brought Mississippi to her present decision. She has heard proclaimed the theory that all men are created free and equal, and this made the basis of an attack upon her social institutions; and the sacred Declaration of Independence has been invoked to maintain the position of the equality of the races.
The student would read what Davis wrote after the war in his two volume book The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government which was published in the 1880s:

In his message to Congress … on December 8, 1863, President (Abraham Lincoln) thus boasts of his proclamation:

“(In January 1863) the final proclamation came, including the announcement that colored men of suitable condition would be received into the war service. The policy of emancipation and of employing black soldiers gave to the future a new aspect, about which hope and fear and doubt contended in uncertain conflict.

“According to our political system, as a matter of civil administration, the General Government had no lawful power to effect emancipation in any State, and for a long time it had been hoped that the rebellion could be suppressed without resorting to it as a military measure. . . .

“Of those who were slaves at the beginning of the rebellion, full one hundred thousand are now in the United States military service, about one half of which number actually bear arms in the ranks, thus giving the double advantage of taking so much labor from the insurgent cause, and supplying the places which otherwise must be filled with so many white men. So far as tested, it is difficult to say they are not as good soldiers as any.”


Let the reader pause for a moment and look calmly at the facts presented in this statement. The forefathers of these negro soldiers were gathered from the torrid plains and malarial swamps of inhospitable Africa. Generally they were born the slaves of barbarian masters, untaught in all the useful arts and occupations, reared in heathen darkness, and, sold by heathen masters, they were transferred to shores enlightened by the rays of Christianity.

There, put to servitude, they were trained in the gentle arts of peace and order and civilization; they increased from a few unprofitable savages to millions of efficient Christian laborers. Their servile instincts rendered them contented with their lot, and their patient toil blessed the land of their abode with unmeasured riches. Their strong local and personal attachment secured faithful service to those to whom their service or labor was due. A strong mutual affection was the natural result of this life-long relation, a feeling best if not only understood by those who have grown from childhood under its influence.

Never was there happier dependence of labor and capital on each other.

The tempter came, like the serpent in Eden, and decoyed them with the magic word of “freedom.” Too many were allured by the uncomprehended and unfulfilled promises, until the highways of these wanderers were marked by corpses of infants and the aged. He put arms in their hands, and trained their humble but emotional natures to deeds of violence and bloodshed, and sent them out to devastate their benefactors. What does he boastingly announce?—”It is difficult to say they are not as good soldiers as any.”​

The student, then, would read that Davis was an ardent supporter of slavery; that he was ardently against the equality of the races; and that he believed that slaves were contented with their lot. The student would learn that the negro only gained his freedom when the country lead by Davis was defeated, and the Union could then enforce Lincoln's Proclamation and the 13th Amendment upon the former Confederate States. The student would see that years after the war was over, Davis was unchanged and unapologetic in his feelings about the inferiority of African Americans.

The student might then wonder "why did they build a monument to that guy... why are they glorifying that?"

And then, W. Richardson, the student comes to you and asks: sir, where are the monuments which talk about the pro-slavery agenda of Confederates, and what that agenda meant to black southerners, who made up 40% of the population in the Confederate states? She asks you that question... where would you suggest that she look? Merely erecting monuments to black soldiers, for example, does not answer these questions about the actions of Confederates.

- Alan
 
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