- Joined
- Aug 17, 2011
- Location
- Birmingham, Alabama
Yes, though my posting has slowed a bit while I have other projects going on. But I'm still posting new articles on a fairly regular basis.
You may get an award for the longest running thread.
Yes, though my posting has slowed a bit while I have other projects going on. But I'm still posting new articles on a fairly regular basis.
Also keeps the mods from deleting articles and issuing warnings.No, Jgoodguy created this one so the other would remain for articles and supporting evidence rather than discussion.
Duplication of evidence is not evidence of anything but duplication.
Interesting point.Agreed, but it does show that these stories could be widely reported and widely known. It's no wonder so many took the idea of the South arming black men seriously all during the war when reports like this appeared in so many newspapers.
There is such an enthusiastic tone to this article. As they say, "It is a great pity this had not been done before."
The New York herald. (New York [N.Y.]) 1840-1920, March 20, 1865
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I've been trying to locate the communication mentioned here in the March 16, 1863 Cleveland morning leader, with no success so far. "The matter has been communicated to the authorities at Washington."
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From my readings, it was quite common for scouts to be black on both sides if we are just proving the blacks served on both sides---My question is did blacks who served in whatever jobs receive Confederate pensions from the individual states and what were the numbers?
And is it even possible to find out? My point being that if in fact blacks served in substantial numbers---many of these numbers should show up in these pension numbers.
From my readings, it was quite common for scouts to be black on both sides if we are just proving the blacks served on both sides---My question is did blacks who served in whatever jobs receive Confederate pensions from the individual states and what were the numbers?
And is it even possible to find out? My point being that if in fact blacks served in substantial numbers---many of these numbers should show up in these pension numbers.
Approximately 267 applied for a pension to the State of Tennessee. "Colored Man's Pension" distinguished them from "Soldiers Pension". Most were "Body-Servants" who accompanied their masters or master's sons. Some were "Free Persons of Color" that willingly attached themselves to a particular soldier, (usually an officer). Some were named on the muster rolls, most were not. Not all former Confederate States paid such pensions, Alabama and Georgia come to mind. Arkansas allowed these men to take up residence in Confederate Veteran homes if needed, but they had to relinquish their pensions back to the State. There were also occasionally a free man that served in the ranks. It's usually accepted that Holt Collier actually served as you say, as a scout and was many times in combat. The only type pension he could apply for though from Mississippi, was a Servant's Pension.
Numbers I have seen for servants and laborers total about 4,000. A smaller number received soldier pensions - somewhere in the hundreds. They had to be "indigent" (no means of support) to receive a pension which was the same rule for whites.From my readings, it was quite common for scouts to be black on both sides if we are just proving the blacks served on both sides---My question is did blacks who served in whatever jobs receive Confederate pensions from the individual states and what were the numbers?
From my readings, it was quite common for scouts to be black on both sides if we are just proving the blacks served on both sides---My question is did blacks who served in whatever jobs receive Confederate pensions from the individual states and what were the numbers?
And is it even possible to find out? My point being that if in fact blacks served in substantial numbers---many of these numbers should show up in these pension numbers.
Men in other states were granted pensions by a special act of their state legislature.
The thing that has impressed me is how all-over-the-place these articles are. Some say there were black CSA soldiers, some advocate for such soldiers (seemingly under the assumption they did not already exist), some advocate for the continued exclusion of blacks from Confederate soldiery (seemingly under the assumption they did not already exist), some are taking articles from northern papers that clearly have no corroboration from Confederate officials. It's a mishmash.Agreed, but it does show that these stories could be widely reported and widely known. It's no wonder so many took the idea of the South arming black men seriously all during the war when reports like this appeared in so many newspapers.
The thing that has impressed me is how all-over-the-place these articles are. Some say there were black CSA soldiers, some advocate for such soldiers (seemingly under the assumption they did not already exist), some advocate for the continued exclusion of blacks from Confederate soldiery (seemingly under the assumption they did not already exist), some are taking articles from northern papers that clearly have no corroboration from Confederate officials. It's a mishmash.
Those discussions ~ which are well documented in the Official Record (versus a paucity of reporting of armed black Confederates in the OR by Confederate authorities themselves) ~ combine with these newspaper accounts to paint a picture of a white South that was in constant dialogue about the role of the Negro during the war, the fate of slavery, and ultimately, the future of the South.
The fact that an official law for enlisting slaves was not enacted until a month before Gen Lee surrendered tells me that despite so much discourse about arming slaves, the Confederacy (certainly its elected leaders) were, as a whole, unwilling to go beyond very limited numbers and very limited cases of armed blacks, unwilling to implement an armed-slave policy that would have a widespread and pervasive impact on Southern life.
Meanwhile, my main longing in these articles is for an understanding of what African Americans thought of all of this.
What I hope to do, and have started to some extent, is to work out what the developing patterns are for the discussion in the newspapers of this topic. It seems more random than it is because I post things as I find them, but here's a rough estimate of how the subject seems to progress:
- 1861 starts out with plenty of stories about black southerners volunteering labor, giving money and offering to raise companies of free black men to fight, in addition to the 1500 men in New Orleans, and other black or mixed race companies in Louisiana, and a few other places around the South.
- the northern newspapers pick up on these, comment on them, and many complain about the north not using its free black population when the south is willing to do so. This is a common refrain from northern editorials in 1861 and 1862, to the point that when southerners complain about black northern troops, their own words or articles are often thrown back in their faces.
- in addition, there are stories and rumors about black participation for the south in 1st Manassas and some skirmishes, and stories about individual slaves who fought in various battles.
So by the end of the 1861, there is a general belief that black men, free and slave, are willing to fight for the south. The largest amount referenced is one or two regiments, or the 1,500 in New Orleans, so there is nothing I've found that is the equivalent of the USCT. 1862 has fewer volunteer stories about the South, but more stories about black men on picket duty, seen during a battle, and plenty of discussion. To me it seems as if a lot of discussion comes from the continued limited sightings and the overall impression carried over from all the press in 1861. Press accounts from early in the war are again referenced as evidence.
If you do not already have it, I highly recommend The Peninsula Campaign & the Necessity of Emancipation: African Americans & the Fight for Freedom by Glenn David Brasher. It is very readable. It provides a narrative that, although about the origin the Union's emancipation policy, might be useful in how you look at these articles from the southern press.
You might need to get to the middle of the book to see how that works out, but by then, you will see it.
- Alan