Black mayor joins SCV

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wilber6150

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Page 290 Recollections of Abraham Lincoln

note 11. Page 235, Line 25, after the word God.

John W, Crisfield

When he was in the White house one day in July 1862, Mr. Lincoln said: " Well, Crisfield, how are you getting along with your report, have you written it yet?" Mr Crisfield replied that he had not. Mr. Lincoln kinowing the Emancipation Proclaimation was coming, in fact was only two months away - said,

:You better come up with an agreement. Nig@#%$ will never be higher."

Recollections of Abraham Lincoln, 1847-1865
By Ward Hill Lamon

http://books.google.com/books?id=eQ41EHEN0kIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Lamon lincoln&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cxUPUd3BFJGE9QTy-YCoBA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=******s&f=false

Here is one part of the Myth for starters.
So Lincoln knew there would be a what could be called a Union victory two months before it happened? Wow he was good....
 

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wilber6150

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LOL. Half the battle is being able to recognize it when you see it, right? Any reference to a black serving the Confederacy willingly triggers the reference to the Black Confederate Myth, but it seems references to the nobility of the Federal forces seeking to "trample out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored" and such don't have the same triggering ability. OK, next one I see I'll highlight it for you.
Please do, and blacks serving in the Confederacy wouldn't have that reaction if it wasn't for Lost Causers trying to use their existance to show that blacks served in the same capacity as whites in the ranks so the war couldn't be about slavery...Or they try to transform slaves who were told to accompany their masters into a war, into willing volunteers willing to risk their lives because of their love of the Confederacy..We have seen it hundreds of times on this site and others along with faked images and other forged evidence, so yes we do get a knee jerk reaction..Expecially, when a comment is made like in the original post of this thread...
 

Shadow9216

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...do what they want in spite of your views.
Barry, I'm not singling you out. This snippet, though, is such a dangerously double-edged sword it must be used with caution. The notion that any group in our pluralistic society can act with blatant disregard of others' views/beliefs/opinions is troubling. Yes, it happens- on every issue and on every side of the social continuum. That doesn't make it right.

Today the SCV acts with impunity. Tomorrow it's some group wanting to ban the CBF. Monday it'll be a Confederate heritage group calling 4th of July celebrations offensive. Thursday it'll be a Unionist group demanding nothing Confederate be displayed, unless it's being burned, and so on. Hyperbole? Perhaps. But Forrest and Jeff Davis parks might have a different opinion. Silent Sam is safe- for now. Will he be in 5 years? 10 years?

Ultimately, regardless of which side our ancestors fought upon (it was their fight, after all, not ours), we are all on the same side: preservation of the knowledge, memory, and history of the battles our ancestors fought. Our shared enemy is apathy, agenda, and the encroachment of developers who see strip malls and suburbs. For 13 pages now we've argued about this black mayor joining the SCV, and the nature of his ancestor's service, and many spirals off of this. Debate, argue, hammer away- have at it. But let's also not overlook the potential for this to be a "teachable moment" to anyone who has a 1-dimensional view of the Civil War: there are a myriad of stories to be told, and it's not as sharply defined as we'd sometimes believe. There are all sorts of people who fought and died on both sides, and they should be recognized. It's all-inclusive and the mayor's ancestor is just one example we can use to change popular perceptions. Too often people think in binary: keep monuments/tear down monuments, celebrate/don't celebrate heritage. There is a third option: tell the full story, without the "spin." Include everyone, so everyone has a stake in preserving the heritage we've inherited.
 
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Barry, I'm not singling you out. This snippet, though, is such a dangerously double-edged sword it must be used with caution. The notion that any group in our pluralistic society can act with blatant disregard of others' views/beliefs/opinions is troubling. Yes, it happens- on every issue and on every side of the social continuum. That doesn't make it right.

Today the SCV acts with impunity. Tomorrow it's some group wanting to ban the CBF. Monday it'll be a Confederate heritage group calling 4th of July celebrations offensive. Thursday it'll be a Unionist group demanding nothing Confederate be displayed, unless it's being burned, and so on. Hyperbole? Perhaps. But Forrest and Jeff Davis parks might have a different opinion. Silent Sam is safe- for now. Will he be in 5 years? 10 years?

Ultimately, regardless of which side our ancestors fought upon (it was their fight, after all, not ours), we are all on the same side: preservation of the knowledge, memory, and history of the battles our ancestors fought. Our shared enemy is apathy, agenda, and the encroachment of developers who see strip malls and suburbs. For 13 pages now we've argued about this black mayor joining the SCV, and the nature of his ancestor's service, and many spirals off of this. Debate, argue, hammer away- have at it. But let's also not overlook the potential for this to be a "teachable moment" to anyone who has a 1-dimensional view of the Civil War: there are a myriad of stories to be told, and it's not as sharply defined as we'd sometimes believe. There are all sorts of people who fought and died on both sides, and they should be recognized. It's all-inclusive and the mayor's ancestor is just one example we can use to change popular perceptions. Too often people think in binary: keep monuments/tear down monuments, celebrate/don't celebrate heritage. There is a third option: tell the full story, without the "spin." Include everyone, so everyone has a stake in preserving the heritage we've inherited.

The group recognized a veterans service in spite of the fact they were a cook, nurse musician or slave. As far as banning the CBF that is being asked for by hundreds of groups and its the SCV fighting that battle. Its a battle that needs to be fought now. People complain about placing flags in Confederate Cemeteries. Students cant wear flags to school but every other cultural outfit is welcomed and approved. My bottom line as well as most of the SCV is if you don't fight for it, It is lost anyway. To me its worth fighting for. political correctness, historic revision to leave out Confederate soldiers, I fought these battles the moment I recognized I had Confederate ancestors. There are hundreds of views displayed here. Some like John Brown which is the only one I respond negative too. I have never threw any slight to any Union soldier even Sherman ,who was careless with fire. I mentioned John B. Gordon to a member who was searching for him as an ancestor and got some colorful responses. The Confederate Veteran takes a beating wherever he goes. I believe te response was "If you cant do the time Don't to the time?. Of course the last Confederate veterans from Georgia died in 1959. Apparently even death doesn't give these veterans any relief.
 
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Reading the SUVCW magazine,the Banner,it seems many of the new camps are forming in the South,could be the South is the future for the SUVCW.Northerners just don't seem to have the vested interest in our Civil War the South does.
 

James B White

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Page 290 Recollections of Abraham Lincoln

note 11. Page 235, Line 25, after the word God.

John W, Crisfield

When he was in the White house one day in July 1862, Mr. Lincoln said: " Well, Crisfield, how are you getting along with your report, have you written it yet?" Mr Crisfield replied that he had not. Mr. Lincoln kinowing the Emancipation Proclaimation was coming, in fact was only two months away - said,

:You better come up with an agreement. Nig@#%$ will never be higher."

Recollections of Abraham Lincoln, 1847-1865
By Ward Hill Lamon

http://books.google.com/books?id=eQ41EHEN0kIC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Lamon lincoln&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cxUPUd3BFJGE9QTy-YCoBA&ved=0CEsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=******s&f=false

Here is one part of the Myth for starters.
Well, yes, it's a myth that the Emancipation Proclamation would free all slaves, so Crisfield of Maryland had nothing to worry about in relation to that, since there wasn't a direct connection between the EP and compensated emancipation for Maryland.

But that quote has been posted a couple times recently now, and I suspect that I'm not taking away from it what posters are implying. Is it supposed to be significant that Lincoln said "Nig@#%$"?

I read it as Lincoln imitating what a slave trader might say to entice a plantation owner to sell, in reference to normal market conditions. Slave prices had been rising just before the war, and some owners were probably waiting to sell to see if prices might go even higher, so traders would need to encourage them with reassurance that there was no reason to wait for prices to rise further.

In this case, of course, Lincoln would be aware of the irony that he was in the position of a slave trader, trying to entice owners to sell with a compensated emancipation plan, so it would be countrified self-deprecating humor to imitate the low-class speech of one, just the sort of thing Lincoln would do.

If we're supposed to be shocked because Lincoln the great emancipator said the n-word, well, I think that would overlook the connotations of the word at that time. From an educated white person's point of view, it wasn't so much a word to insult black people, as it was a reference to the way low-class whites mispronounced "negro."

Needless to say, that tied it into the cliche of lower-class whites being the ones who were catching runaways, whipping disobedient slaves, buying up slaves for traders, and in general being on the front lines of the worst treatment of blacks, so any white man who called a black man "Nig@#%$" instead of "negro/negra" would imply this wasn't going to be a pleasant conversation for the black man, and one can see how that led directly to its current connotation.

The way I read it, though, the butt of Lincoln's joke/insult is himself and low-class white slave-buyers, and it's not really about the "Nig@#%$" themselves.
 

Shadow9216

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The group recognized a veterans service in spite of the fact they were a cook, nurse musician or slave. As far as banning the CBF that is being asked for by hundreds of groups and its the SCV fighting that battle. Its a battle that needs to be fought now. People complain about placing flags in Confederate Cemeteries. Students cant wear flags to school but every other cultural outfit is welcomed and approved. My bottom line as well as most of the SCV is if you don't fight for it, It is lost anyway. To me its worth fighting for. political correctness, historic revision to leave out Confederate soldiers, I fought these battles the moment I recognized I had Confederate ancestors. There are hundreds of views displayed here. Some like John Brown which is the only one I respond negative too. I have never threw any slight to any Union soldier even Sherman ,who was careless with fire. I mentioned John B. Gordon to a member who was searching for him as an ancestor and got some colorful responses. The Confederate Veteran takes a beating wherever he goes. I believe te response was "If you cant do the time Don't to the time?. Of course the last Confederate veterans from Georgia died in 1959. Apparently even death doesn't give these veterans any relief.
And you're right to fight for them, and I'm right beside you fighting for them- but the numbers aren't there. Most people have a limited view of the CW, and it's pretty one-sided; North good, South bad. So what's the answer?

Frontal attacks don't work- on the battlefield or in the popular culture. The stereotype is the white guy digging in his heels refusing to take down his CBF despite his neighbors' complaints. Or the small town somewhere in "the South" which still honors Jefferson Davis and refuses to take down his statue. This isn't a question of should they, or is it right, or anything of the sort. This is a battlefield and we (CW history supporters) need a viable strategy for fighting it. Head-on isn't working too well. So what did our ancestors do? They flanked the opposition. That's what I'm arguing for, work around the opposition. Some, those with agendas aimed at full suppression of anything CSA, can't be co-opted; they can be isolated and neutralized. The rest of the population, those with a casual understanding and less concrete beliefs can be approached, educated, worked with. Let people know "the rest of the story." I've seriously thought about how this could be done, and I believe there is a way to alter popular impressions. But it starts with recognizing that there are alternative points of view- doesn't mean you/I/we/anyone has to accept them, but it does mean we have to give them a hearing.

And yes, I realize that happens here- I'm talking about out there, in the real world.
 
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Reading the SUVCW magazine,the Banner,it seems many of the new camps are forming in the South,could be the South is the future for the SUVCW.Northerners just don't seem to have the vested interest in our Civil War the South does.

There are many Union veterans buried in the South. The Kingston Women's history club continue to mark the two union graves buried there. I have helped mark a few Union graves my self. There are many union SCV members and the largest camp I remember is in the Tennessee North Ga Area. Back in the 1900's local people would pepper the ground with minnie balls for Union Veterans to find as souvenirs. Some of the sectionalism is a problem in this era not between the original veterans.
 

CSA Today

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Reading the SUVCW magazine,the Banner,it seems many of the new camps are forming in the South,could be the South is the future for the SUVCW.Northerners just don't seem to have the vested interest in our Civil War the South does.
The last I heard there were five or six SUV camps in North Carolina as opposed to over a hundred SCV camps in the state. Most SUV camps in NC and the South cluster around military bases or in areas with a large northern “transplant” population.

Deo Vindice
 
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A number of Confederate veterans buried up here in southern Ohio,three I keep a eye on in the Pine St. Cemetery Gallopolis,there's also Camp Chase,Johnson Island cemeteries.Dont know of any graves of CV that moved north right off,heard of some though.
 
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The last I heard there were five or six SUV camps in North Carolina as opposed to over a hundred SCV camps in the state. Most SUV camps in NC and the South cluster around military bases or in areas with a large northern “transplant” population.

Deo Vindice
Lets hope the number of SUVCW camps will increase.My wife's gggrandfather joined a NC regt.CS deserted and joined the 3rd NC union,mounted infantry I believe.
 
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And you're right to fight for them, and I'm right beside you fighting for them- but the numbers aren't there. Most people have a limited view of the CW, and it's pretty one-sided; North good, South bad. So what's the answer?

Frontal attacks don't work- on the battlefield or in the popular culture. The stereotype is the white guy digging in his heels refusing to take down his CBF despite his neighbors' complaints. Or the small town somewhere in "the South" which still honors Jefferson Davis and refuses to take down his statue. This isn't a question of should they, or is it right, or anything of the sort. This is a battlefield and we (CW history supporters) need a viable strategy for fighting it. Head-on isn't working too well. So what did our ancestors do? They flanked the opposition. That's what I'm arguing for, work around the opposition. Some, those with agendas aimed at full suppression of anything CSA, can't be co-opted; they can be isolated and neutralized. The rest of the population, those with a casual understanding and less concrete beliefs can be approached, educated, worked with. Let people know "the rest of the story." I've seriously thought about how this could be done, and I believe there is a way to alter popular impressions. But it starts with recognizing that there are alternative points of view- doesn't mean you/I/we/anyone has to accept them, but it does mean we have to give them a hearing.

And yes, I realize that happens here- I'm talking about out there, in the real world.

I appreciate your rationale. Let me ask another question. Many people after the Vietnam protested the soldiers as killers, etc And I have an ancestor on the Vietnam wall Howard Lebron Colbaugh who happened to be a cook who died in a helicopter crash. I haven't found a Vietnam Forum but if I had an opportunity to honor him I would. Rest assured someone out there still holds some past opinions of those vets. In spite of that possible bad blood out there I am going to honor that veteran. I can.t change the stereotype placed on Confederate Veterans by the Klan or any other hate group. I cant get rid of the Westboro church either and the black eye they place on my faith. I will not get in apolgetics for them and Confederates don't owe them one either.

There will be people no matter what any ones view is that think Confederates were traitors. Slavery was perpetuated for no other purpose than beating people, and the entire South were a bunch of racist hate mongers still about the business of holding people back and dragging down the United States as a whole. As I have h=just posted the Greatest Emancipator was guilty of making a remark that got Paula Dean, Imus, Michael Richards"Kramer off Sienfeld" and others lose their entire careers over one miss comment. All this says to me no matter what your stance on the matter is you will always be condemned by the opposition. There will be also some people who could do no wrong. But History reveals another side.
 
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A number of Confederate veterans buried up here in southern Ohio,three I keep a eye on in the Pine St. Cemetery Gallopolis,there's also Camp Chase,Johnson Island cemeteries.Dont know of any graves of CV that moved north right off,heard of some though.

I have a veteran from the 9th Georgia Artillery buried in Humptulips, Washington. I think the war encouraged some Confederates to travel some as far up as Canada.
 
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These are the requirements for membership in the Sons of Union Veterans of the Civil War. I am an associate member.
  1. is directly descended from a Soldier, Sailor, Marine or member of the Revenue Cutter Service (or directly descended from a brother, sister, half-brother, or half-sister of such Soldier, etc.) who was regularly mustered and served honorably in, was honorably discharged from, or died in the service of, the Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Revenue Cutter Service of the United States of America or in such state regiments called to active service and was subject to the orders of United States general officers, between April 12, 1861 and April 9, 1865;
  2. has never been convicted of any infamous or heinous crime; and
  3. has, or whose ancestor through whom membership is claimed, has never voluntarily borne arms against the government of the United States.
  1. is directly descended from a Soldier, Sailor, Marine or member of the Revenue Cutter Service (or directly descended from a brother, sister, half-brother, or half-sister of such Soldier, etc.) who was regularly mustered and served honorably in, was honorably discharged from, or died in the service of, the Army, Navy, Marine Corps or Revenue Cutter Service of the United States of America or in such state regiments called to active service and was subject to the orders of United States general officers, between April 12, 1861 and April 9, 1865;
  2. has never been convicted of any infamous or heinous crime; and
  3. has, or whose ancestor through whom membership is claimed, has never voluntarily borne arms against the government of the United States.
Associate: Men who do not have the ancestry to qualify for hereditary membership may become Associates if they:

  1. Demonstrate a genuine interest in the Civil War; and
  2. Can subscribe to the purpose and objects of the SUVCW
Although an Associate is not required to meet the lineage requirement of a Member, he is still subject to the second and third provisions of hereditary eligibility. An Associate may vote and hold any office except those of Commander-in-Chief, Senior Vice Commander-in-Chief, Junior Vice Commander-in-Chief, National Secretary, National Treasurer and CNnommanding Officer of the Sons of Veterans Reserve. Associates may not exceed one-third of the total membership of the Camp at the time of election.

ef, Junior Vice Commander-in-Chief, National Secretary, National Treasurer and CNommanding Officer of the Sons of Veterans Reserve. Associates may not exceed one-third of the total membership of the Camp at the time of election.
Numbers 1 & 2 above refer to Associate members.

I assume the SCV has similar rules. However the SCV seems to be recruiting Black members who were servants of Confederates, or cooks, or teamsters, or something else other than Enlisted soldiers. I keep coming back to the BCM, how the Confederate gov't absolutely disavowed Black soldiers, how the Confederate gov't didn't know what to do with the Louisiana Native Guard, and so forth. I have no problem with Black Men and Women joining the SCV, but I can't stand the paper overing of the lie of Black soldiers.
We have a Black member in our Camp - legitimately descended from Mississippi USCT. Big difference in my book.
OK forgive me for asking but on number 3: "has, or whose ancestor through whom membership is claimed, has never voluntarily borne arms against the government of the United States." Wouldn't that disqualify just about everyone who wanted to join? If their ancestor hadn't borne arms against the U.S. then...what did they do during the war?
 
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