August 18th, 1864, Grant refuses the second Confederate request to exchange POW’s.

Caswell Ranger

Corporal
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Location
Virginia
So when exactly was there not enough food in the South to feed the pows?
A letter was posted on another board written by a Confederate Captain in the NC Cavalry. Written in January 1863 from Kinston NC, he describes the difficulty of obtaining food for himself, his men, and the horses. This rather surprised me, as I know the area well, it's very agricultural. So here we have an example of a shortage of food in an area one might consider abundant. I am not disputing your observation, it's a valid point. Hopefully others will come forth with further information.

For those not familiar with the Fort Macon campaign, the Federals were successful in Eastern North Carolina and the Confederates in Kinston were opposing any further advance.
 

dvrmte

Major
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
South Carolina
It was troll bait, I did post in the thread explaining why I wasn't going to play the game with you. You believe it acceptable to shoot into a hospital I do not. We are to far apart to meet on any kind of middle ground as there is no middle ground. What I consider cowardice you call courageous and honorable.


You know that I don't condone shooting into hospitals. But those used in the ACW were often armed, used as troop or war material transports. The factual evidence was presented and evidently read by you which was evident by the "likes" you posted. Yet, like a Lost Causer, you won't accept the facts when they stare you in the eye.
 

dvrmte

Major
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
South Carolina
But isn't that what Grant was seeing in the field, Vicksburg parolees (who in your telling of events were not released until Aug 1864) among those captured near Chattanooga Nov 1863? In an honest debate, how does one get from there to Grant being "full of it."

http://www.jfepperson.org/pow.htm
Feb. 18, 1861 U.S. troops in Texas surrender to state forces and are paroled.
May 10, 1861 Roughly 700 Missouri militiamen captured by U.S. forces at Camp Jackson, in St. Louis, and are paroled.
June 3, 1861 C.S. privateer Savannah captured by the U.S. brig Perry.
July 21, 1861 First Battle of Bull Run results in approximately 1,000 U.S. officers and men taken prisoner by the Confederates.
August 30, 1861 Union Col. W.H.L. Wallace (commanding at Bird's Point, Missouri) and Confederate Gen. Gideon Pillow (commanding at Columbus, Kentucky) agree to exchange prisoners.
Dec. 11, 1861 U.S. Congress passes resolutions in favor of opening an exchange agreement with the Confederacy.
Feb. 8, 1862 Battle of Roanoke Island; Brig. Gen. Ambrose Burnside captures nearly 2,500 Confederates.
Feb. 16, 1862 Initial discussions between Generals Benjamin Huger (C.S.) and John Wool (U.S.).
Fort Donelson surrenders to Brig. Gen. U.S. Grant; approximately 12,000 Confederates captured.
Feb. 23, 1862 First meeting between Wool and C.S. Brig. Gen. Howell Cobb, now acting in place of Huger.
Feb. 26, 1862 Stanton disapproves of the proposed Wool-Cobb agreeement, and negotiations break down.
April 8, 1862 Confederate garrison at New Madrid and Island No. 10 surrenders to Brig. Gen. John Pope; 3,500 Confederates taken prisoner.
July 12, 1862 Maj. Gen. John Dix authorized to discuss exchange cartel with the Confederates.
July 18, 1862 Dix and Confederate Maj. Gen. D.H. Hill meet to discuss cartel.
July 22, 1862 Final form of cartel agreed upon and signed. Judge Robert Ould becomes Confederate Agent of Exchange. After some initial confusion, Col. William H. Ludlow becomes U.S. Agent for Exchange.
July 31, 1862 Confederate President Jefferson Davis instructs General Robert E. Lee to inform the Federals that Union Maj. Gen. John Pope, and certain of his subordinates, will not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, should they be captured, because of orders issued for the removal of disloyal civilians from within the Federal lines.
August 8, 1862 Union Maj. Gen. D. C. Buell issues order restricting paroles. The order is later rescinded at the insistence of the Confederates.
August 21, 1862 The Confederates decree that Union Maj. Gen. David Hunter and other officers be held for execution as felons (instead of prisoners of war) for raising regiments of former slaves for the Union service.
August 30, 1862 Federal defeat at Richmond, Kentucky; perhaps as many as 4,000 prisoners taken and paroled in the field.
Sept. 15, 1862 Federal garrison at Harper's Ferry surrenders; about 12,000 men taken prisoner and paroled in the field.
Sept. 17, 1862 Federal garrison at Mumfordville, Kentucky, surrenders; 5,000 prisoners taken and paroled in the field.
Dec. 24, 1862 C.S. President Jefferson Davis issues proclamation branding Union Maj. Gen. Benjamin Butler an outlaw, to be hanged immediately upon capture. The same proclamation decrees that white officers of black regiments, and the troops themselves, will be remanded to state governments for trial on charges of servile insurrection.
Dec. 28 & 30, 1862 Exchange and parole of Confederate officers halted by order of Stanton and Halleck.
Jan. 11, 1863 Rebel troops at Arkansas Post surrender; 5,000 prisoners taken.
Jan. 26, 1863 Grant issues order making invalid any paroles "in the field" offered to the troops of his department.
Feb. 3, 1863 Rosecrans informs Federal Secretary of War Stanton that the cartel does not allow paroles in the field, yet the Rebels have consistently been doing so.
Feb. 28, 1863 General Order 49, restricting the granting and giving of paroles, is issued by the Federal War Department, but not officially transmitted to the Confederates.
March 16, 1863 Orders issued to exchange the Arkansas Post prisoners through City Point, Virgina, rather than have them directly reinforce Vicksburg while Grant is campaigning to take the town.
March 27, 1863 Exchange of officers on a man-for-man basis is re-authorized by the Federal War Department.
April 24, 1863 General Orders 100 (the Lieber Code), adopted by U.S. War Department.
May 1, 1863 In response to Davis's December 24 proclamation, the Confederate Congress provides that the officers of Negro troops in the Union army should be tried under Confederate law for inciting servile insurrection, and put to death upon conviction; while the Negro troops themselves would be "delivered to the authorities of the State or States in which they shall be captured to be dealt with according to the present or future law of such State or States."
May 15, 1863 Two Rebel captains (McGraw and Corbin) executed, by order of Burnside, for spying while recruiting in Kentucky.
May 22, 1863 General Orders 49 and 100 finally transmitted to the Confederates.
May 25, 1863 Exchange and parole of officers ordered halted by Federal War Department, in retaliation for the action of the Confederate Congress with regard to Negro troops and their officers.
June 13, 1863 Confederate Gen. E. Kirby Smith writes to his subordinate, Lt. Gen. Richard Taylor: "I have been unofficially informed that some of your troops have captured negroes in arms. I hope this may not be so, and that your subordinates who may have been in command of capturing parties may have recognized the propriety of giving no quarter to armed negroes and their officers. In this way we may be relieved from a disagreeable dilemma."
July 2, 1863 Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens embarks on mission to Washington to discuss the prisoner of war issue; Lincoln refuses to meet with him.
July 3, 1863 General Order 207, reminding officers in the field of the regulations regarding exchange and parole, is issued.
July 4, 1863 Vicksburg garrison (about 30,000 men) surrenders, is paroled by Grant.
At Gettysburg, Lee offers to exchange prisoners with Maj. Gen. George G. Meade, but Meade declines. Confederates parole their prisoners before retreating, but the paroles are declared invalid by Federal authorities and the men are returned to duty.
July 6, 1863 Rebel authorities select (by lot) Union Capts. Sawyer and Flinn, held in Libby Prison, to be executed in retaliation for the execution of Capts. Corbin and McGraw.
July 9, 1863 Port Hudson surrenders; 6,000 men taken prisoner by Maj. Gen. N.P. Banks, and are paroled through Mobile.
July 13, 1863 Exchange of enlisted men ordered halted (by Stanton), "until there is better understanding in relation to the cartel and a more rigid adherence to its stipulations on the part of the rebel authorities."
July 15, 1863 President Lincoln orders that Brig. Gen. W.H.F. Lee, captured on June 26, be held as hostage for Capts. Sawyer and Flinn.
July 23, 1863 Col. W.H. Ludlow replaced as Federal Agent of Exchange by Brig. Gen. Sullivan Meredith.
August 7, 1863 Meredith announces to Stanton his intention to insist that black troops in Union regiments, and their officers, be treated as prisoners of war.
Sept. 7, 1863 Confederates announce exchange of the bulk of the Vicksburg garrison.
Oct. 1, 1863 As of this date, Judge Ould is claiming an imbalance by which the Confederates are owed 7,500 men, whereas Gen. Meredith claims the Federals are owed 10,024.
Nov. 28, 1863, & Dec. 2, 1863 Maj. Gen. Ethan Allen Hitchcock, serving as Federal "Commissioner for Exchange," writes letters to New York Times, placing the blame for the suspension of exchanges largely on C.S. policy toward black troops.
Dec. 17, 1863 Maj. Gen. Ben Butler appointed U.S. Agent of Exchange, begins negotiations to re-open exchanges.
Jan. 12, 1864 Butler proposes "man-for-man" exchange to Ould.
Feb. 25, 1864 Brig. Gen. Rooney Lee and two Rebel captains ordered exchanged for Union Brig. Gen. Neal Dow and Capts. Sawyer and Flinn.
April 9, 1864 Butler reports to Stanton that it is his impression that the Confederates, on the matter of paroles, seem willing to be fair and reasonable, but on the matter of former slaves in blue uniforms, the Confederates are unyielding.
April 15, 1864 Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant is informed by Col. William Hoffman, U.S. Commissary-General of Prisoners, that the Confederates "owe" the Federals some 23,000 men.
April 17, 1864 Grant issues orders to Butler essentially forbidding exchanges unless and until the Confederates agree to treat black troops equally with white, and agree to compensate the U.S. for the early release from parole of the Vicksburg and Port Hudson garrisons.
April 20, 1864 Plymouth, North Carolina, falls to Confederate forces under Brig. Gen. Robert Hoke, with a large number of Federal troops being taken prisoner. In mid-July a survivor of the Federal garrison signs an affadavit alledging that the Confederates systematically and brutally murdered all the black Federal troops taken prisoner.
May 7, 1864 Federal War Department orders all parolees back into active service, declaring that, even after this, the Rebels, because of recent unilateral declarations of exchange, will "owe" the Union some 33,600 men.
June 13, 1864 C.S. Secretary of War James Seddon writes to Maj. Gen. Howell Cobb, commanding the Georgia militia: "As to the white officers serving with negro troops, we ought never to be inconvenienced with such prisoners."
August 8, 1864 Halleck informs Maj. Gen. John G. Foster, commanding the Federal Dept. of the South, that, "No exchanges will be made without special instructions of the War Department. Any offer for exchange will be communicated here for the action of the Secretary of War."
August 10, 1864 Judge Ould agrees to a man-for-man exchange.
August 18, 1864 Grant writes to Butler, "It is hard on our men held in Southern prisons not to exchange them, but it is humanity to those left in the ranks to fight our battles. Every man we hold, when released on parole or otherwise, becomes an active soldier against us at once either directly or indirectly. If we commence a system of exchange which liberates all prisoners taken, we will have to fight on until the whole South is exterminated."
August 19, 1864 Grant writes to Union Secretary of State Seward, "We ought not to make a single exchange nor release a prisoner on any pretext whatever until the war closes. We have got to fight until the military power of the South is exhausted, and if we release or exchange prisoners captured it simply becomes a war of extermination."
August 27, 1864 Butler responds to Ould's proposal of August 10, asking if black troops will be included in the Confederate proposal. No reply is made. (After the war, Ould contends that Butler made no reply.)
Sept. 8, 1864 Hood proposes to Sherman an exchange of recently captured men, and Sherman agrees.
Sept. 9, 1864 A proposal for exchange of prisoners unfit for immediate active military service is made by Butler.
Sept. 11, 1864 Hood attempts to exchange men from Andersonville and men whose enlistments have expired for men recently captured from his army; Sherman refuses, Hood gives in, and about 2,000 men are exchanged each way.
Sept. 18, 1864 Exchange of invalid and sick prisoners begins.
Oct. 1, 1864 Lee proposes an exchange with Grant, but the idea founders on the question of black troops.
Oct. 6, 1864 Ould proposes that the two sides be allowed to provide for their men held in captivity by the other side; this proposal is eventually accepted by the Federals.
Oct. 15, 1864 Stanton places all prisoner of war issues in Grant's hands, with instructions to "take any steps that you may deem proper to effect the release and exchange of our soldiers and all loyal persons held as prisoners by the rebel authorities."
Jan. 20, 1865 Confederate Brig. Gen. John Winder, in charge of prisoner issues for the South, suggests paroling all the men held at Florence, South Carolina.
Jan. 21, 1865 Grant informs Stanton that he has given instructions that negotiations be re-opened with a view to resuming a general exchange.
Jan. 24, 1865 Ould proposes to Grant that exchanges be re-opened on a man-for-man basis.
Feb. 2, 1865 Grant informs Stanton that he intends to exchange about 3,000 men per week until one side or the other has no more prisoners. The Federals intend to exchange men from states such as Missouri and Kentucky first, to minimize the chances that they could be put back into their units.
April 2, 1865 Grant directs that no more prisoners be sent to City Point, due to developments in the military situation around Petersburg.
April 9, 1865 Judge Ould informs Grant that he is within Federal lines, with all of the Confederate records on prisoners and exchange.
 

Eric Calistri

2nd Lieutenant
Joined
May 31, 2012
Location
Austin Texas
http://www.jfepperson.org/pow.htm
Feb. 18, 1861 U.S. troops in Texas surrender to state forces and are paroled.
May 10, 1861 Roughly 700 Missouri militiamen captured by U.S. forces at Camp Jackson, in St. Louis, and are paroled.
June 3, 1861 C.S. privateer Savannah captured by the U.S. brig Perry.
July 21, 1861 First Battle of Bull Run results in approximately 1,000 U.S. officers and men taken prisoner by the Confederates.
August 30, 1861 Union Col. W.H.L. Wallace (commanding at Bird's Point, Missouri) and Confederate Gen. Gideon Pillow (commanding at Columbus, Kentucky) agree to exchange prisoners.
Dec. 11, 1861 U.S. Congress passes resolutions in favor of opening an exchange agreement with the Confederacy.
Feb. 8, 1862 Battle of Roanoke Island; Brig. Gen. Ambrose Burnside captures nearly 2,500 Confederates.
Feb. 16, 1862 Initial discussions between Generals Benjamin Huger (C.S.) and John Wool (U.S.).
Fort Donelson surrenders to Brig. Gen. U.S. Grant; approximately 12,000 Confederates captured.
Feb. 23, 1862 First meeting between Wool and C.S. Brig. Gen. Howell Cobb, now acting in place of Huger.
Feb. 26, 1862 Stanton disapproves of the proposed Wool-Cobb agreeement, and negotiations break down.
April 8, 1862 Confederate garrison at New Madrid and Island No. 10 surrenders to Brig. Gen. John Pope; 3,500 Confederates taken prisoner.
July 12, 1862 Maj. Gen. John Dix authorized to discuss exchange cartel with the Confederates.
July 18, 1862 Dix and Confederate Maj. Gen. D.H. Hill meet to discuss cartel.
July 22, 1862 Final form of cartel agreed upon and signed. Judge Robert Ould becomes Confederate Agent of Exchange. After some initial confusion, Col. William H. Ludlow becomes U.S. Agent for Exchange.
July 31, 1862 Confederate President Jefferson Davis instructs General Robert E. Lee to inform the Federals that Union Maj. Gen. John Pope, and certain of his subordinates, will not be accorded the rights of prisoners of war, should they be captured, because of orders issued for the removal of disloyal civilians from within the Federal lines.
August 8, 1862 Union Maj. Gen. D. C. Buell issues order restricting paroles. The order is later rescinded at the insistence of the Confederates.
August 21, 1862 The Confederates decree that Union Maj. Gen. David Hunter and other officers be held for execution as felons (instead of prisoners of war) for raising regiments of former slaves for the Union service.
August 30, 1862 Federal defeat at Richmond, Kentucky; perhaps as many as 4,000 prisoners taken and paroled in the field.
Sept. 15, 1862 Federal garrison at Harper's Ferry surrenders; about 12,000 men taken prisoner and paroled in the field.
Sept. 17, 1862 Federal garrison at Mumfordville, Kentucky, surrenders; 5,000 prisoners taken and paroled in the field.
Dec. 24, 1862 C.S. President Jefferson Davis issues proclamation branding Union Maj. Gen. Benjamin Butler an outlaw, to be hanged immediately upon capture. The same proclamation decrees that white officers of black regiments, and the troops themselves, will be remanded to state governments for trial on charges of servile insurrection.
Dec. 28 & 30, 1862 Exchange and parole of Confederate officers halted by order of Stanton and Halleck.
Jan. 11, 1863 Rebel troops at Arkansas Post surrender; 5,000 prisoners taken.
Jan. 26, 1863 Grant issues order making invalid any paroles "in the field" offered to the troops of his department.
Feb. 3, 1863 Rosecrans informs Federal Secretary of War Stanton that the cartel does not allow paroles in the field, yet the Rebels have consistently been doing so.
Feb. 28, 1863 General Order 49, restricting the granting and giving of paroles, is issued by the Federal War Department, but not officially transmitted to the Confederates.
March 16, 1863 Orders issued to exchange the Arkansas Post prisoners through City Point, Virgina, rather than have them directly reinforce Vicksburg while Grant is campaigning to take the town.
March 27, 1863 Exchange of officers on a man-for-man basis is re-authorized by the Federal War Department.
April 24, 1863 General Orders 100 (the Lieber Code), adopted by U.S. War Department.
May 1, 1863 In response to Davis's December 24 proclamation, the Confederate Congress provides that the officers of Negro troops in the Union army should be tried under Confederate law for inciting servile insurrection, and put to death upon conviction; while the Negro troops themselves would be "delivered to the authorities of the State or States in which they shall be captured to be dealt with according to the present or future law of such State or States."
May 15, 1863 Two Rebel captains (McGraw and Corbin) executed, by order of Burnside, for spying while recruiting in Kentucky.
May 22, 1863 General Orders 49 and 100 finally transmitted to the Confederates.
May 25, 1863 Exchange and parole of officers ordered halted by Federal War Department, in retaliation for the action of the Confederate Congress with regard to Negro troops and their officers.
June 13, 1863 Confederate Gen. E. Kirby Smith writes to his subordinate, Lt. Gen. Richard Taylor: "I have been unofficially informed that some of your troops have captured negroes in arms. I hope this may not be so, and that your subordinates who may have been in command of capturing parties may have recognized the propriety of giving no quarter to armed negroes and their officers. In this way we may be relieved from a disagreeable dilemma."
July 2, 1863 Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens embarks on mission to Washington to discuss the prisoner of war issue; Lincoln refuses to meet with him.
July 3, 1863 General Order 207, reminding officers in the field of the regulations regarding exchange and parole, is issued.
July 4, 1863 Vicksburg garrison (about 30,000 men) surrenders, is paroled by Grant.
At Gettysburg, Lee offers to exchange prisoners with Maj. Gen. George G. Meade, but Meade declines. Confederates parole their prisoners before retreating, but the paroles are declared invalid by Federal authorities and the men are returned to duty.
July 6, 1863 Rebel authorities select (by lot) Union Capts. Sawyer and Flinn, held in Libby Prison, to be executed in retaliation for the execution of Capts. Corbin and McGraw.
July 9, 1863 Port Hudson surrenders; 6,000 men taken prisoner by Maj. Gen. N.P. Banks, and are paroled through Mobile.
July 13, 1863 Exchange of enlisted men ordered halted (by Stanton), "until there is better understanding in relation to the cartel and a more rigid adherence to its stipulations on the part of the rebel authorities."
July 15, 1863 President Lincoln orders that Brig. Gen. W.H.F. Lee, captured on June 26, be held as hostage for Capts. Sawyer and Flinn.
July 23, 1863 Col. W.H. Ludlow replaced as Federal Agent of Exchange by Brig. Gen. Sullivan Meredith.
August 7, 1863 Meredith announces to Stanton his intention to insist that black troops in Union regiments, and their officers, be treated as prisoners of war.
Sept. 7, 1863 Confederates announce exchange of the bulk of the Vicksburg garrison.
Oct. 1, 1863 As of this date, Judge Ould is claiming an imbalance by which the Confederates are owed 7,500 men, whereas Gen. Meredith claims the Federals are owed 10,024.
Nov. 28, 1863, & Dec. 2, 1863 Maj. Gen. Ethan Allen Hitchcock, serving as Federal "Commissioner for Exchange," writes letters to New York Times, placing the blame for the suspension of exchanges largely on C.S. policy toward black troops.
Dec. 17, 1863 Maj. Gen. Ben Butler appointed U.S. Agent of Exchange, begins negotiations to re-open exchanges.
Jan. 12, 1864 Butler proposes "man-for-man" exchange to Ould.
Feb. 25, 1864 Brig. Gen. Rooney Lee and two Rebel captains ordered exchanged for Union Brig. Gen. Neal Dow and Capts. Sawyer and Flinn.
April 9, 1864 Butler reports to Stanton that it is his impression that the Confederates, on the matter of paroles, seem willing to be fair and reasonable, but on the matter of former slaves in blue uniforms, the Confederates are unyielding.
April 15, 1864 Lt. Gen. U.S. Grant is informed by Col. William Hoffman, U.S. Commissary-General of Prisoners, that the Confederates "owe" the Federals some 23,000 men.
April 17, 1864 Grant issues orders to Butler essentially forbidding exchanges unless and until the Confederates agree to treat black troops equally with white, and agree to compensate the U.S. for the early release from parole of the Vicksburg and Port Hudson garrisons.
April 20, 1864 Plymouth, North Carolina, falls to Confederate forces under Brig. Gen. Robert Hoke, with a large number of Federal troops being taken prisoner. In mid-July a survivor of the Federal garrison signs an affadavit alledging that the Confederates systematically and brutally murdered all the black Federal troops taken prisoner.
May 7, 1864 Federal War Department orders all parolees back into active service, declaring that, even after this, the Rebels, because of recent unilateral declarations of exchange, will "owe" the Union some 33,600 men.
June 13, 1864 C.S. Secretary of War James Seddon writes to Maj. Gen. Howell Cobb, commanding the Georgia militia: "As to the white officers serving with negro troops, we ought never to be inconvenienced with such prisoners."
August 8, 1864 Halleck informs Maj. Gen. John G. Foster, commanding the Federal Dept. of the South, that, "No exchanges will be made without special instructions of the War Department. Any offer for exchange will be communicated here for the action of the Secretary of War."
August 10, 1864 Judge Ould agrees to a man-for-man exchange.
August 18, 1864 Grant writes to Butler, "It is hard on our men held in Southern prisons not to exchange them, but it is humanity to those left in the ranks to fight our battles. Every man we hold, when released on parole or otherwise, becomes an active soldier against us at once either directly or indirectly. If we commence a system of exchange which liberates all prisoners taken, we will have to fight on until the whole South is exterminated."
August 19, 1864 Grant writes to Union Secretary of State Seward, "We ought not to make a single exchange nor release a prisoner on any pretext whatever until the war closes. We have got to fight until the military power of the South is exhausted, and if we release or exchange prisoners captured it simply becomes a war of extermination."
August 27, 1864 Butler responds to Ould's proposal of August 10, asking if black troops will be included in the Confederate proposal. No reply is made. (After the war, Ould contends that Butler made no reply.)
Sept. 8, 1864 Hood proposes to Sherman an exchange of recently captured men, and Sherman agrees.
Sept. 9, 1864 A proposal for exchange of prisoners unfit for immediate active military service is made by Butler.
Sept. 11, 1864 Hood attempts to exchange men from Andersonville and men whose enlistments have expired for men recently captured from his army; Sherman refuses, Hood gives in, and about 2,000 men are exchanged each way.
Sept. 18, 1864 Exchange of invalid and sick prisoners begins.
Oct. 1, 1864 Lee proposes an exchange with Grant, but the idea founders on the question of black troops.
Oct. 6, 1864 Ould proposes that the two sides be allowed to provide for their men held in captivity by the other side; this proposal is eventually accepted by the Federals.
Oct. 15, 1864 Stanton places all prisoner of war issues in Grant's hands, with instructions to "take any steps that you may deem proper to effect the release and exchange of our soldiers and all loyal persons held as prisoners by the rebel authorities."
Jan. 20, 1865 Confederate Brig. Gen. John Winder, in charge of prisoner issues for the South, suggests paroling all the men held at Florence, South Carolina.
Jan. 21, 1865 Grant informs Stanton that he has given instructions that negotiations be re-opened with a view to resuming a general exchange.
Jan. 24, 1865 Ould proposes to Grant that exchanges be re-opened on a man-for-man basis.
Feb. 2, 1865 Grant informs Stanton that he intends to exchange about 3,000 men per week until one side or the other has no more prisoners. The Federals intend to exchange men from states such as Missouri and Kentucky first, to minimize the chances that they could be put back into their units.
April 2, 1865 Grant directs that no more prisoners be sent to City Point, due to developments in the military situation around Petersburg.
April 9, 1865 Judge Ould informs Grant that he is within Federal lines, with all of the Confederate records on prisoners and exchange.

I posted the link to this earlier. Point is .... ?
 

godofredus

Sergeant Major
Joined
Apr 17, 2013
Location
Chicago
This original post was a photograph of Camp Chase, Columbus, Ohio, for Confederate Prisoners of war.
See http://www.forgottenoh.com/Cemeteries/campchase.html for details on the camp and more pictures.

I thought it was an interesting photograph, not realizing it was bait for us Northern Fish to comment on this guy's idea that Grant refused prisoner exchange because of?

Well the "because of" is always well known, just denied or evaded by Confederate partisans. The "because of" is because the CSA failed - deliberately - to treat the men of USCT - enlisted and officers - as soldiers. The Black enlistees were - if still alive - sold as slaves, the officers were threatened with execution.
That is why that chronological list above is both important, interesting, and gives all of us a basis in fact.
Now those Confederate partisans - since I have been cautioned about using the phrase "neo-Confederates" and "lost cause folk", I regard as demeaning - can say: Grant used the refusal to exhange USCT as a fig leaf to cover up his real motive - to deprive the Confederacy of man power. Or - as I actually heard a Park Service guy in Richmond say - the conditions in Libby prison were Lincoln's fault because he refused to exchange prisoners - never once mentioning Davis's attitude toward USCT.
I keep the quote "De nial is not the name of a river in Egypt." So we have posts: the member of USCT who was sold as a slave or taken by the Confederate government as a laborer was better off. We have folk who apparently claim Davis never did this, or was forced by Confederate gov't to do this.
Will someone please post the accurate record of what happened to USCT who were actually taken prisoner? Or what actually happened to their officers? Or is there a Ph.D thesis here that has never been done?
Two kinds of posts fascinate me: the Black Confederate soldier myth, and the denial that the CSA had a policy of grabbing any loose Black person and enslaving him/her.
So there is concurrent myth: the war was not about slavery and race.
You Southern partisans would love my high school history teacher - a New Englander who thought the south got a raw deal, and naming the hero of "Gone With the Wind" Rhett Butler was an insult to the Rhetts and the Butlers.
 

johan_steele

Regimental Armorer
Retired Moderator
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
South of the North 40
You know that I don't condone shooting into hospitals.

I'm heartened to see you reverse your opinion of the CS partisan/irregular practice of shooting into unarmed hospital ships, trains and full on hospitals from one of praise to condemnation. I look forward to your future posts respecting the rights and accomplishments of the USCT.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
Don't distort the meaning of my post, which you've already shown an intent to do before I called you on it. Are purposely trying to be dishonest?

I fail to see how posting your entire statement is distorting it. Do you not stand by your claiming they would be better off in slavery? The very clear meaning of your post was you didn't think they would be able to support themselves. Do you not stand by that?

If slavery was such a great deal for the elderly, children, or feeble people, why didn't white folks sell their elderly grandparents into slavery? Why didn't they enslave their children? Why didn't they enslave feeble white folks?
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
They weren't the ones that started the whole "no prisoners exchange thing". Seems that the Unionists weren't the angels all pro-Unionists here think they were...

They were the ones who cheated on the paroles and did not treat black soldiers as regular POWs, two actions which caused the end of the exchange. I think it was one of the most noble things the Federals did and one of the most despicable things the confederates did.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
The truth is that the REAL reason that the exchange system broke down was that the Union side
did not want the South to get exchanged back soldiers at a ratio of 1 to 1, when the armies in
the field were closer to a ratio of 2 to 1 in favor of the Union. So, a 1 to 1 exchange was favorable
to the South. No matter that thousands of soldiers on both sides would endure sickness and death
while in POW prisons. They didn't want the war to go on and on helped by the exchange rate.
And the South was not able to feed and care for their prisoners due partly to the blocade on sea
and land of the South by the Union. So, Grant wanted his cake and he wanted to eat it also, so to speak.
He stopped the exchange of soldiers back into the South and he also blamed them for the breakdown.

This post shows ignorance of history. The accurate history has been posted already. Grant had nothing to do with ending the exchanges.
 

Stefany

Banned
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Location
Bulgaria
They were the ones who cheated on the paroles and did not treat black soldiers as regular POWs, two actions which caused the end of the exchange. I think it was one of the most noble things the Federals did and one of the most despicable things the confederates did.

The Confederacy never said she will treat black soldiers as ordinary soldiers.
 

cash

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Right here.
I have to laugh sometimes during discussions like this. It is always thousands here and thousands there
when there were 4 million slaves. thousands freed don't amount to nothing more than spit in the ocean.

It shows that where the Union army went, slaves left the plantations. Obviously, the army didn't go near every slave, or even a majority of the slaves. So about 20-25,000 slaves left their farms and plantations and followed Sherman on his march. That was one army group. Add to that all the contraband camps. Still not anywhere near even a quarter of the slaves in the confederacy, but still a LOT of people. There were so many they overwhelmed the government's ability to support them properly. And still they kept on coming.



The outnumbered the white population. Why wasn't there a revolt? There was no revolt even tried during the civil war.

False.

http://www.nytimes.com/1993/05/09/books/the-inquisition-in-mississippi.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm



Perhaps someone can explain that. And based on the figures you can't say they were guarded and couldn't leave.
They had every opportunity most didn't take because the South just happened to be home for them!


Wrong again. Home guard units and slave patrols kept security. Also, the confederate government provided that one white man was exempt from conscription if he had at least 20 slaves to control. Later in the war that was reduced to 15 slaves.
 

dvrmte

Major
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Location
South Carolina
I'm heartened to see you reverse your opinion of the CS partisan/irregular practice of shooting into unarmed hospital ships, trains and full on hospitals from one of praise to condemnation. I look forward to your future posts respecting the rights and accomplishments of the USCT.


No reversal of opinion as I don't believe there was a such thing as an unarmed hospital ship or train in the ACW. What you're trying to do is use your 21st morals or beliefs to judge events 150 years ago, I could do the same and would have a pretty fair case of perfidy against for the Union for using hospital facilities as human shields for supplying their armies and in offensive military operations. Wasn't that part of the propaganda from the Iraq war, that they were using mosques and hospitals to store their weapons.
 

wilber6150

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Retired Moderator
Joined
Apr 1, 2009
Location
deep in the Mohawk Valley of Central New York
No reversal of opinion as I don't believe there was a such thing as an unarmed hospital ship or train in the ACW. What you're trying to do is use your 21st morals or beliefs to judge events 150 years ago, I could do the same and would have a pretty fair case of perfidy against for the Union for using hospital facilities as human shields for supplying their armies and in offensive military operations. Wasn't that part of the propaganda from the Iraq war, that they were using mosques and hospitals to store their weapons.

Where have you ever proven that hosptial ships under the guise of doing medical work were used in offensive operations.. The only thing you showed was that one ship was used, but never showed that it was disgusied as doing medical work.. And why wouldn't they be armed agasint partizans and bushwackers ?
 

KeyserSoze

Captain
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Location
Kansas City
Yeah Grant was very mean, no doubt about that. Refusing to even exchange prisoners, that's low.

How low can you go?

"I have been unofficially informed that some of your troops have captured negroes in arms. I hope this may not be so, and that your subordinates who may have been in command of capturing parties may have recognized the propriety of giving no quarter to armed negroes and their officers. In this way we may be relieved from a disagreeable dilemma." - General E. Kirby Smith, June 13,1863.
 

KeyserSoze

Captain
Joined
Apr 14, 2011
Location
Kansas City
Early's autobiography says he supported executing POWs? Stonewall had some sort of Old Testament rant about the "black flag" but I don't think he really meant it. I'm thinking the execution for reprisals that the two sides sometimes threatened to perform is what we're talking about.

"As to the white officers serving with negro troops, we ought never to be inconvenienced with such prisoners." - James Seddon to Howell Cobb, June 1864.
 
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