Are there accounts of soldiers who were ordered to, or who volunteered to act as a deserter; just to deceive the enemy?

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Occasionally while reading about the civil war I see where it's said or inferred some deserters were sent or "planted" to mislead the enemy with exaggerated numbers, I can see where on one hand such a strategy would make sense.......

But don't think I've ever seen actual evidence of soldiers being ordered to, or volunteering to possibly spend a year or more in a POW camp, does anyone know of accounts that show a deserter was ordered to, or volunteered to desert to just deceive the enemy?
 
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I have no idea what it is you are asking for. Bragg ordered men to pretend to be deserters & provide Rosecrans' interrogators with chickenfeed. That is documented. It was planned. By all accounts, the scale of the operation was sufficient to achieve the intended goal. That is the only conclusion that the documented evidence supports. Was it on a large scale? I don't know what that means, in this case. All that is known is that it was on the right scale.
Then who are the names of those ordered to become prisoners?

It's rather simple as if it's actually documented and not just opinion.......one should be able to provide a rather lengthy list of names if was indeed happening on much of a scale.......let's us my original OP example of before Corinth, if many of the deserters during the month leading to seige were planned, who were say 10 of those so ordered?........

An authors opinion is documented....it's the actual totals and names of those who were ordered to do so, that should be documented if the opinion is actually substantiated.........so that's what I asked for....
 
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Rhea Cole

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Then who are the names of those ordered to become prisoners?

It's rather simple as if it's actually documented and not just opinion.......one should be able to provide a rather lengthy list of names if was indeed happening on much of a scale.......let's us my original OP example of before Corinth, if many of the deserters during the month leading to seige were planned, who were say 10 of those so ordered?........

An authors opinion is documented....it's the actual totals and names of those who were ordered to do so, that should be documented if the opinion is actually substantiated.........so that's what I asked for....
If you are really interesting in the names of the pseudo-deserters, I encourage you to look them up.
 
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If you are really interesting in the names of the pseudo-deserters, I encourage you to look them up.
I will just assume no one has seen actual lists as no one seems able to provide them.....including the authors making the claims...little point in looking for something that doesn't seem to exist.

As elsewhere when he has documentation to substantiate.....he provides foot notes to it.

The reason I asked here was I was skeptical to the unsubstantiated passage, and we have many knowledgeable members in many areas, someone likely could provide actual evidence if it was tactic either commonly used or widespread during the campaign.

It's his claim not mine.....you would think he would have, then provided the evidence.

Something thats unsubstantiated is merely that, so I don't put too much stock into it. Not only am I skeptical from the apparent lack of communication of it during the war, but if was done much would think postwar there would be claims that they weren't really captured, but were ordered to as some elaborate deception operation.......
 
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Rhea Cole

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I will just assume no one has seen actual lists as no one seems able to provide them.....including the authors making the claims...little point in looking for something that doesn't seem to exist.

As elsewhere when he has documentation to substantiate.....he provides foot notes to it.

The reason I asked here was I was skeptical to the unsubstantiated passage, and we have many knowledgeable members in many areas, someone likely could provide actual evidence if it was tactic either commonly used or widespread during the campaign.

It's his claim not mine.....you would think he would have, then provided the evidence.

Something thats unsubstantiated is merely that, so I don't put too much stock into it. It rather seems more simply an excuse for commanders afraid of their own shadow.
I provided a clear representation of the documented facts. I don't see where there is anything else I can add to this topic.
 
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I provided a clear representation of the documented facts. I don't see where there is anything else I can add to this topic.
You provided similar unsubstantiated claims in unrelated campaigns, that doesn't equate into documented facts.

I could ask about seeing a guy claiming he saw bigfoot, others could find similar documented claims...........the unsubstantiated claims still don't equate to the existence at all of the subject of the claims.

In the OP I worded it as I thought I had seen such vague claims made before as well..........thats still not evidence of some elaborate deception operation though, I was asking for evidence of the actual supposed practice, not more vague claims like I provided
 
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If someone makes such a claim....regardless of side or campaign.

I would think asking who was in charge or directed such a deception operation? How many participants or planned deserters were involved? What documentation of such an operation or effort exists in the OR's, ect from the side conducting such operations? Postwar were people claiming they weren't really captured during the war, it was just an deception hoax?

Not see why anyone would be offended at me asking......as aren't all these the type of things such a claim would be based on, if based on documented evidence? But these are the types of evidence I've seen very little of.
 
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None that I know of...

I have come across isolated incidents such as one provided earlier of a scout having temporarily enlisted with a side to desert back to the other, Wild Bill Hickok is another who allegedly did so early in the war. But they are tales and not in OR's that I'm aware of.

Though in the instances it's not entirely clear to me whether they were ordered to or it was done on their own initiative.....scouts were also often civilian.

Which isn't exactly the same as this planned desertion.......because a enemy deserter could be simply treated as another prisoner.....
 

Rhea Cole

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Chickamauga, Glenn Tucker, Bragg sends false info to Rosecrans.jpeg

Chickamauga: Bloody Battle in the West. by Tucker Glenn
Here is another reference, "...by the scores..." for you to dismiss. Of course, by the scores also describes the citations that refer to Bragg sending scouts to misinform Rosecrans... actually that is incorrect, it should read, "...by the hundreds."
 
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Again it is indeed odd there's seldom any substance to these claims.

Rather like bigfoot or UFO claims......when it comes to the workings or actual proof of the claims.........it seems it's just the claim......nothing else.

Cause when one stops to consider.....the more vague claims we can piece together, the more widespread it would be if the claims are based on fact. So there should be more and more direct evidence from those conducting or having been part of it.......yet this doesn't seem to grow.....
 
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Rhea Cole

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Again it is indeed odd there's seldom any substance to these claims.

Rather like bigfoot or UFO claims......when it comes to the workings or actual proof of the claims.........it seems it's just the claim......nothing else.

Cause when one stops to consider.....the more vague claims we can piece together, the more widespread it would be if the claims are based on fact. So there should be more and more direct evidence from those conducting or having been part of it.......yet this doesn't seem to grow.....
Actually, this is just a case of ignoring the citations that don’t conform to a straw man argument... again.
 
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Actually, this is just a case of ignoring the citations that don’t conform to a straw man argument... again.
no its not......all I have seen myself and what you have mainly provided is vague claims by postwar authors........What I originally asked for in the OP is first hand accounts of those involved......the actual supposed deserters or those actually directing and ordering people to desert.........and it is still noticeably lacking

Not seeing how you refuse to see the difference, but oh well......One can claim anything......if it actually happened, their should be plenty of firsthand accounts by those actually involved........so that is what I asked for......
 

Rhea Cole

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no its not......all I have seen myself and what you have mainly provided is vague claims by postwar authors........What I originally asked for in the OP is first hand accounts of those involved......the actual supposed deserters or those actually directing and ordering people to desert.........and it is still noticeably lacking

Not seeing how you refuse to see the difference, but oh well......One can claim anything......if it actually happened, their should be plenty of firsthand accounts by those actually involved........so that is what I asked for......
This is very peculiar; personal pronouns, such a as “you” & implied mind reading, for example. The historical record & written citations have no personal content of any kind. There are no speculations or opinions expressed.
 
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No it implies I have asked for actual first hand accounts by those supposedly involved in the practice.........and that seems lacking.....that is not at all ignoring actual citations of actual evidence though, as there has been none.........that was the rather false attempt at mind reading apparently

As I said before, not sure why you seem offended by someone asking for actual first hand accounts from those actually involved. If it was happening on much a scale as suggested by some authors....and in different campaigns as claimed by said authors.....it should exist......as that would be the actual proof of such claimed activity happening on the scale they have claimed.........
 
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FPT

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Is there a copy of any actual order or any contemporaneous documentation (diary entry, letter, etc) illuminating this policy?
I may be dense about this whole discussion, but to me it would not make much sense to write orders about planned desertions (aka spying) and who was assigned to the task. I think that a spying mission very easily turned into a planned desertion once the spy was caught (without incriminating evidence) and he was able to convince the captors that he was nothing more than a poor, down on his luck deserter.
 
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I may be dense about this whole discussion, but to me it would not make much sense to write orders about planned desertions (aka spying) and who was assigned to the task. I think that a spying mission very easily turned into a planned desertion once the spy was caught (without incriminating evidence) and he was able to convince the captors that he was nothing more than a poor, down on his luck deserter.
There would little reason to not discuss it postwar if it actually occurred however..

The Confederacy lost, so nothing to protect..

They had been pardoned, no reprocussions

And if your right there is no first hand evidence.....it would mean claims by postwar authors who weren't there...are merely speculation and opinion with no real basis. As fact is based on supportable evidence.

Once one starts claiming the lack of evidence, (because it was secret you know) is the evidence something happened.....it seems well down the road to tin foil conspiracies...... I prefer to stay in the realm of first hand evidence supported conclusions, why I asked for actual first hand evidence.

Also the allegations weren't someone decided to pretend to be deserter and give false info on their own after accidentally getting caught.....but that people were intentionally being sent out to be caught as deserters purposely.
 
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This is reminding me of a friend I have that loves KGC and Jesse James conspiracies.....he will lay out some elaborate conspiracy.....I will go "Ok what evidence, accounts and documents supports this"........and I get "well they didn't write it down or talk about it, because it was secret".............and all you can do is roll your eyes as it means it's based on nothing......it's like just a cool sounding ghost story......
 

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I may be dense about this whole discussion, but to me it would not make much sense to write orders about planned desertions (aka spying) and who was assigned to the task. I think that a spying mission very easily turned into a planned desertion once the spy was caught (without incriminating evidence) and he was able to convince the captors that he was nothing more than a poor, down on his luck deserter.
Sometimes even "unplanned" events turned into significant opportunities for espionage, as in a case involving John S. Mosby. Long before he embarked on his career as a famous guerilla, scout, and spy, as a mere enlisted man in Jeb Stuart's cavalry he was captured during McClellan's Peninsula Campaign and held for a fortunately short time before being taken to Fortress Monroe for prisoner exchange. Along the sail from D.C. he observed troop transports crowded with Federal troops, and when after he arrived and was exchanged made his way to Lee's headquarters where he personally informed the commander-in-chief that McClellan's men were positively being transferred away from his army, thereby leading directly to Lee's successful Second Manassas Campaign.
 
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