An aggressive George H. Thomas at Chattanooga

Billy Goat Hill is NOT part of Missionary Ridge. It is a detached Hill. A Valley separates it and Tunnel Hill.

I can suggest you a good Book. The OPs. Mr Rose isn’t the only one who has written about this. But he is Knowledgeable. Maybe he will chime in. You won’t believe him either. So, I don’t know why he would.

Here is an account. Good description of Billy Goat and Missionary Ridge.
I’ve read plenty of books, good and otherwise.

here is what historian Stephen Woodworth wrote in one of his good books:
Careful examination of the ground and written evidence, however, reveals that the high ground Sherman's men took on the afternoon of November 24 was indeed part of Missionary Ridge." - from the book Six Armies in Tennessee.
 
I’ve read plenty of books, good and otherwise.

here is what historian Stephen Woodworth wrote in one of his good books:
Careful examination of the ground and written evidence, however, reveals that the high ground Sherman's men took on the afternoon of November 24 was indeed part of Missionary Ridge." - from the book Six Armies in Tennessee.
You ain’t never read a Book that said Billy Goat Hill is part of Missionary Ridge.

I said earlier a couple of Sherman’s regiments made it to the side of Tunnel Hill On the 24th. They occupied abandoned Rifle Pits Cleburne used. Cleuburne is told by Hardee they are staying and Fighting the evening of the 24th. Cleuburne forms up on the geographical crest of Tunnel Hill and abandons those rifle pits. The rest of Sherman’s Army, even after realizing they had gone up the wrong slope, dug in on Billy Goat Hill and remained there until the morning of the 25th. The Glass Farm is off the Slope. The RR Tunnel goes thru Tunnel Hill and is off the Slope. 2 regiments of Cummings Georgians are up on Missionary Ridge above the Tunnel.

You need to fine a good book and study it if you are interested in the Battle. Snippet here and there don’t cut it.

Mr Rose has studied this intently. I’ve read Wiley Sword, Powell wrote a short Book on Missionary Ridge. Cozzen’s book is good. Six Army’s is good, if you read all of it. I’ve spent several hours with Jim Ogden on Tunnel Hill.

I don’t think it is fair to criticize Mr Rose if you haven’t studied the subject intently. I’ve studied his book thru Shiloh, Chattanooga, Reconstruction and Grant’s Presidency. Saving Vicksburg period until this Winter because I’m going to study it intently. Then read the Eastern stuff. As far as I‘m concerned, he is fair to Grant. More than fair on Reconstruction and his Presidency. I’ve read much harsher on that period, and it is deserved. To each his own.
 
You ain’t never read a Book that said Billy Goat Hill is part of Missionary Ridge

I just quoted one to you. By a respected historian.


I said earlier a couple of Sherman’s regiments made it to the side of Tunnel Hill On the 24th. They occupied abandoned Rifle Pits Cleburne used.
That wasnt until early on the 25th that they occupied those rifle pits

You need to fine a good book and study it if you are interested in the Battle. Snippet here and there don’t cut it.
I say the same thing to you.
 
For more than a century, historians misjudged James Longstreet because of the aspersions by Jubal Early and the other members of the Lost Cause Crew. The same fate has largely befallen George Thomas thanks to the aspersions cast by Grant, Schofield, and even Sherman. Unfortunately, Thomas didn't have a Pulitzer-winning novel and a successful Hollywood production to restore his reputation. If you ask me, Thomas was the outstanding military leader of the Civil War on either side. He never lost a battle. Under his leadership, the Army of the Cumberland was the most professional and effective army on the continent. He is so often derided as a purely "defensive" general, yet two of the war's most successful tactical offensives - Chattanooga and Nashville - were carried out by Thomas. He is called slow, yet almost always his judgment on timing proved absolutely correct, especially at Nashville.
Agree, Thomas deserves far more credit than he gets. His tactical performance, especially at Nashville was brilliant. He utterly routed the CS Army of Tennessee, rendering it ineffective for the remainder of the war On the other side of the coin, he prevented the rout of Rosecrans' command at Chattanooga by making a stand and stopping the Confederate advance. He quite literally, saved Rosecrans' bacon and averted an utter disaster for the Federals.
 
I think Thomas gets plenty of recognition, at least from those somewhat knowledgable about the war. Hell, he was given plenty of credit in the books by Catton and Pratt I read as a kid in the 1950s. The man is no secret.
 
I think Thomas gets plenty of recognition, at least from those somewhat knowledgable about the war. Hell, he was given plenty of credit in the books by Catton and Pratt I read as a kid in the 1950s. The man is no secret.

Maybe not a secret, but does not get the recognition he deserves.
 
Thomas did not live long enough after the war to write his memoirs. Perhaps if he had, his reputation would be more widely known or enhanced.
 
Maybe not a secret, but does not get the recognition he deserves.

I don't know; it seems to me he's known and appreciated by most on this forum and by most people I've met who are more than superficially interested in the war, people in the Midwest anyway. I think the average person goes no deeper than knowing who Grant and Sherman were, and maybe Sheridan. People know Custer but as an Indian fighter.

Ord, now there's a guy whose contributions seem unrecognized, even by those who know the war pretty well. And Ord got a raw deal when he was retired by President Hayes to open a general's slot for Nelson Miles.

Regards
 
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Thomas did not live long enough after the war to write his memoirs. Perhaps if he had, his reputation would be more widely known or enhanced.
Does it matter? Grant respected him and Sherman relied on him. He was unhappy about his rank at the end of the war. But he was retained as one of the department commanders. He went to California, which ended his reconstruction duties. But Sherman definitely considered him an essential member of the team.
 
At Chattanooga Grant was dealing with Stanton and Lincoln and the baloney coming from Burnside and Andrew Johnson about eastern Tennessee. Thomas was not dealing with that, so he had a different schedule in mind with respect to ending the Tennessee operation than Grant did.
Further, there was nothing unusual about Grant taking responsibility of a subordinate attempted something Grant wanted and it did not work.
 
I don't know; it seems to me he's known and appreciated by most on this forum and by most people I've met who are more than superficially interested in the war, people in the Midwest anyway. I think the average person goes no deeper than knowing who Grant and Sherman were, and maybe Sheridan. People know Custer but as an Indian fighter.

Ord, now there's a guy whose contributions seem unrecognized, even by those who know the war pretty well. And Ord got a raw deal when he was retired by President Hayes to open a general's slot for Nelson Miles.

Regards
Right, but he deserves every bit of recognition as those three. And his reputation is that he was slow. He wasn't. That's just what grant and sherman wrote about him.
 
Does it matter? Grant respected him and Sherman relied on him. He was unhappy about his rank at the end of the war. But he was retained as one of the department commanders. He went to California, which ended his reconstruction duties. But Sherman definitely considered him an essential member of the team.
Maybe. He had to complain to get his own department. I don't know if Grant respected him. And Sherman definitely fed into the whole thing about Thomas being slow.
 
Maybe. He had to complain to get his own department. I don't know if Grant respected him. And Sherman definitely fed into the whole thing about Thomas being slow.
What's the source for Thomas having to complain to get a command? Here's a letter from Sherman to Henry Cist where Sherman claims that Thomas complained that Meade, rather than himself, was getting the eastern division. So he complained that he wasn't getting the command he wanted.

But Grant offered a southern division for Thomas, to be headquartered wherever in the south, or the Pacific division held by Halleck. Thomas chose the Pacific.


"Whilst discussing these changes contemplated before the Inauguration of President Grant, Thomas complained to me, that he had all his life been kept in the Far West, banished from civilization, and he thought he had better claims to this Eastern Command than Meade.... He also thought that being an officer much older in the Army than Sheridan and with large experience with Indians his claims to promotion ought to have been more considered, ...​
General Grant authorized me to say to Thomas the he would order for him a Division to be made of the whole South and allow Thomas to have his Headquarters in Nashville, Louisville, Newport Ky. indeed almost any place he would indicate, or he might take the Division of the Pacific then held by Halleck. Thomas said he was tired of the South, that being himself a native of the south he was too often offended by sneering remarks, and that the everlasting growling & complaints of the People of the South had become extremely odious to him. He had himself been in California, and knew much about it, and finally notified me that he preferred California...."​
 
There is a complaining letter from Thomas to Halleck when Rosecrans was appointed instead of himself to replace Buell
Ill see if i can find it
Oh yeah, I remember that. It was about seniority and Halleck mollified Thomas by claiming Rosecrans had seniority over Thomas.
 
So, at the start of reconstruction, there was to be 5 military divisions, commanded by sherman, sheridan, halleck, meade, and Hancock(?), While Thomas was to lead a department within Sherman's division. Thomas sent BG John Miller to Washington to speak with Pres. Johnson.

I'm looking for any original docs right now.
 
The top level army commands were very political. Thomas was from Virginia. Virginia was not going to vote in 1864 and was not a state Grant needed in 1868. Farragut was eased out for similar reasons, while Sheridan was an Irish Catholic and Meade was an east coast Catholic.
Thomas probably should have made the director of West Point.
 
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