mikekj
Corporal
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2014
- Location
- Cobb Co. Georgia
Some hand wrought nails did have bulges, to help hold in wood.
Interesting thought. Might be a possibility. Package4 said he thought there were corrals in that area.I believe the item that is on the top row, third from the left and directly above the large “hook” might be a farrier’s hoof knife. They are used to trim the underside of hooves.
Can you put something beside it to illustrate the length and width?
If you’re unfamiliar with a farrier hoof knife - I ve attached a modern photo. (The item in your display is turned upside down when compared to the modern photo.)
The item you have appears to be the correct size and shape, including the inward turn at the end of the blade.
You have a nice accusation!
View attachment 386233
That almost fits with what I have, but there is no tapering as it goes down toward the end. There just seems to be a 4-sided section near the tip with only a little bulge involved.
I just read an account that the US Army had built corrals and stables in the area of the History Shop, while they were repairing the compound for Quartermaster stores in the 1840s. Some of the relics could possibly be from this period.I got imaginative and put the musket balls in an adjustable crescent wrench, then measured the gap in the wrench. It came to right about .69 caliber for all three.
The rifle balls are .50 and about .437
There was a blacksmith shop located at the Alamo, if I recall correctly and they would have been able to make nails, but not necessarily taper them as time was critical. These would have been more like ship’s spikes.That almost fits with what I have, but there is no tapering as it goes down toward the end. There just seems to be a 4-sided section near the tip with only a little bulge involved.
Sounds plausible.I just read an account that the US Army had built corrals and stables in the area of the History Shop, while they were repairing the compound for Quartermaster stores in the 1840s. Some of the relics could possibly be from this period.
I have always been amazed with the two battles fought there and at one time was a member of the Alamo Society. Somewhere around here I have their periodicals, that are extremely well researched.
I do know that the North wall was reinforced with wooden cribbing of timbers that were 5”-6” thick, so fairly stout nails would be required in certain areas. The timbers and stone walls behind them were torn down per Santa Anna’s direction after the battle of SanJacinto and the remaining Mexican troops were ordered back to Mexico City.
Tearing all of this down would most likely have been done using horses/ mules in harness and dragged across the area, into the space later occupied by the History Shop. Just speculation.
Oh Well. I took a guess based on the photo. Since you have horses, and the actual item, your judgement is best. But they may have been made different 200 years ago; but 4 inches seems small.That almost fits with what I have, but there is no tapering as it goes down toward the end. There just seems to be a 4-sided section near the tip with only a little bulge involved.
I'm not ruling out your guess at this point. It's very thin on the left half, and some of it could have broken off or rusted away. In other words, it may very well have been longer originally.Oh Well. I took a guess based on the photo. Since you have horses, and the actual item, your judgement is best. But they may have been made different 200 years ago; but 4 inches seems small.
The rifle balls are probably incomming rounds from Texian fire. Neat stuff!!!I got imaginative and put the musket balls in an adjustable crescent wrench, then measured the gap in the wrench. It came to right about .69 caliber for all three.
The rifle balls are .50 and about .437
Well I've seen Baker sized balls recovered near La Villita and what could be a Baker trigger guard. I tend to think there were some Bakers in Texas Rev. A lock plate that could be from a Baker was found near the Alamo in 1986. But the majority of parts found in digs are Besses. Its extremely unlikely that the powder horns and equipment used by the 95th rifles made it to Mexico. Some modern artists depict it but I dont see it in inventories of captured/surrendered gear or stuff in storage in Bexar. It just "ain't there".From the very few bona fide Mexican Besses I've seen, (three), their all commercial 3rd "India" Patterns, with the post-1809 cock. One in San Jacinto has the commercial markings, and I've seen two with British commercial marks removed and a Mexican Eagle and Snake with a sunburst engraved slash stamped.
As for Bakers....
While Mexico did buy them, I've about decided they were not used in the Texas Revolution. Kind of admission I hate to make as I love the Baker, but the evidence of their not being used to overwhelming. All the archeological dig data I've read, everyone I know who's dug Texas Rev. sites, has found ZERO evidence of Baker Rifles. No bullets, no parts, no nothing. Heck I know one guy who dug an area confirmed to have had Mexican Cazadores there and found a bunch of dropped Brown Bess balls, and even a Brown Bess lockplate.
I have read of smoothbore New Land Light Infantry musket parts and bullets being found. I'd personally hypothesize these and regular Brown Besses were the weapon of the Mexican light infantry. I know there's a picture of a Baker Rifle floating about the internet in a Mexican museum, but besides that and very outdated references to Mexican documents, (which an American would have better luck getting a private audience with the Pope than even locating much seeing due to Mexican suspicions of us), I'd say Bakers around is a big question mark.
If I were to make a guess about Santa Anna's light infantry, I'd say they didn't use Bakers but Besses and possibly New Lands. Reasons being to simplify supply of the troops in Texas, save money which was in short supply, and to avoid the necessary proper time consuming training in use of a Baker Rifle.
Well I've seen Baker sized balls recovered near La Villita and what could be a Baker trigger guard. I tend to think there were some Bakers in Texas Rev. A lock plate that could be from a Baker was found near the Alamo in 1986. But the majority of parts found in digs are Besses. Its extremely unlikely that the powder horns and equipment used by the 95th rifles made it to Mexico. Some modern artists depict it but I dont see it in inventories of captured/surrendered gear or stuff in storage in Bexar. It just "ain't there".
Yea. The probability of the balls being Texan would make the purchase worthwhile. But since they missed their target - they likely weren’t from Davy Crockett LOLThe rifle balls are probably incomming rounds from Texian fire. Neat stuff!!!
Well, I had a friend measure the balls with his electronic caliper today. I was a bit off on my previous efforts to measure them with the adjustable wrench.
Two of the musket balls came out at about .64 caliber. The third is just shy of .66.
As for the rifle balls, I was pretty accurate on one, at about .509.
The other was not round, being pushed out of shape, but it was .375 one way and .463 the other.
None of the five are perfectly round.
The question now is, are the musket balls too small for Brown Bess use? Sounds more like rounds for a .69 caliber musket.
I have found posts on the Alamo Studies Forum (very similar to CivilWarTalk) that refer to 20,000 arms shipped to Mexico from the U.S. in the 1820's, and some talk of whether some Mexican units at the Alamo had US Model 1816 muskets, which were .69 cal.
Apparently there were some shipments of arms from Spain and France in the preceding years as well.
I assume also, that some of the Texians used smoothbores also, which, of course could be anything.
Any thoughts?
But since they missed their target - they likely weren’t from Davy Crockett LOL
At one time Mexico had a factory that produced all types of military weapons. Because it was a "child" of Spain they copied Spanish guns. Notably the variations of the 1752 musket. Some of those were still rattling around in the 1830's. There was a lithograph published in 1827 showing two types of Mexican "soldados" with this pattern musket. By the time of their independence from Spain in 1821 the factory was shut down. Machinery was worn out and unrepairable. And it was more economical to buy fully assembled weapons (albeit surplus) FWIW: The ship Hannah Elizabeth had a load of these along with India Pattern Besses that had been stockpiled in New Orleans since 1812. The ship was bound for Tejas to supply volunteers in the Texas War. It sunk near Pass Cavallo. Recently this shipwreck was found and a LOT of those muskets recovered. Now I'm pretty sure Mexico still had some of those older muskets and issued them to the Indio conscripts. This could explain some of the smaller balls found in digs. A ball size of .620 to .640 was typical in .69 cal muskets. And any Tejano scouts, spies, draymen and others who volunteered to help Santa Anna could have been issued this size ammo for their "escopetas" which tended towards .56 - .70 caliberWell, I had a friend measure the balls with his electronic caliper today. I was a bit off on my previous efforts to measure them with the adjustable wrench.
Two of the musket balls came out at about .64 caliber. The third is just shy of .66.
As for the rifle balls, I was pretty accurate on one, at about .509.
The other was not round, being pushed out of shape, but it was .375 one way and .463 the other.
None of the five are perfectly round.
The question now is, are the musket balls too small for Brown Bess use? Sounds more like rounds for a .69 caliber musket.
I have found posts on the Alamo Studies Forum (very similar to CivilWarTalk) that refer to 20,000 arms shipped to Mexico from the U.S. in the 1820's, and some talk of whether some Mexican units at the Alamo had US Model 1816 muskets, which were .69 cal.
Apparently there were some shipments of arms from Spain and France in the preceding years as well.
I assume also, that some of the Texians used smoothbores also, which, of course could be anything.
Any thoughts?
I saw an 1842 US percussion pistol that had been remarked with the Mexican eagle and snake. They probably anealed the plate, filed off the US markings and restamped it. Then reharden and temper. Viola ! A useable pistolI think I know what forum your referring to. As for American weapons, M1816's and 1798 Contract muskets made their way to Mexico and other Latin countries.
As for the .64's and .66's there's one possible explanation. Fowlers.
Rifles were never as common in Early America to the extent of everyone having one. Fowlers were a lot cheaper and way more plentiful. A 20 gauge or 16 gauge on the smaller ones would account for those bullets, more or less. Load them with round shot you got a handy musket.
Another explanation is the Mexican weapons. It wasn't uncommon to issue ammunition smaller than the actual bore for muskets back then so the guns could be loaded as easily after 30 rounds as on the second or third ones. Also Paget carbines, British ones were .62 caliber, and I've read once some commercial pattern copies, (Mexico got commercial military guns from Britain, NOT surplus), could have been .66 caliber. But I can't confirm that....
Also Texans had plenty of military muskets on their own. Cheap wore out old muskets made good fowlers, plus the Alamo contained a lot of Mexican weapons when San Antonio was surrendered to the Texans
It wouldn't surprise me if some arsenal in the deep south still had some of those Spanish muskets and converted them to percussion for use by Confederate militia or home guards.Anything that could go "bang" and sling a ball.
Wow! Fascinating insight. Thanks for sharingAt one time Mexico had a factory that produced all types of military weapons. Because it was a "child" of Spain they copied Spanish guns. Notably the variations of the 1752 musket. Some of those were still rattling around in the 1830's. There was a lithograph published in 1827 showing two types of Mexican "soldados" with this pattern musket. By the time of their independence from Spain in 1821 the factory was shut down. Machinery was worn out and unrepairable. And it was more economical to buy fully assembled weapons (albeit surplus) FWIW: The ship Hannah Elizabeth had a load of these along with India Pattern Besses that had been stockpiled in New Orleans since 1812. The ship was bound for Tejas to supply volunteers in the Texas War. It sunk near Pass Cavallo. Recently this shipwreck was found and a LOT of those muskets recovered. Now I'm pretty sure Mexico still had some of those older muskets and issued them to the Indio conscripts. This could explain some of the smaller balls found in digs. A ball size of .620 to .640 was typical in .69 cal muskets. And any Tejano scouts, spies, draymen and others who volunteered to help Santa Anna could have been issued this size ammo for their "escopetas" which tended towards .56 - .70 caliber
It wouldn't surprise me if some arsenal in the deep south still had some of those Spanish muskets and converted them to percussion for use by Confederate militia or home guards.Anything that could go "bang" and sling a ball.