Restricted Agree to define "Lost Cause"

unionblue

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"The Treasury of Virtue, which is the psychological heritage left to the North by the Civil War, may not be as comic or vicious as the Great Alibi, but it is equally unlovely. It may even be, in the end, equally corrosive of national, and personal, integrity. If the Southerner, with his Great Alibi, feels trapped by history, the Northerner, with his Treasury of Virtue, feels redeemed by history, automatically redeemed. He has in his pocket, not a Papal indulgence peddled by some wandering pardoner of the Middle Ages, but an indulgence, a plenary indulgence, for all sins past, present, and future, freely given by the hand of history." (59)

Robert Penn Warren

Now post the explanation of the South's "Great Alibi" by the same author.
 

CSA Today

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As further info:

As requested by @CSA Today.
Source is The Treasury of Counterfeit Virtue
Looks like a modern politics criticism to me with a civil war twist. Please ignore modern politics in discussing. Personally I see this as a typical abbevilleinstitute rhetorical exercise.

Have fun and no modern politics.

of note

In 1961, during the Civil War centennial, Robert Penn Warren published a little book called The Legacy of the Civil War. He had some critical things to say about the tendency of his fellow Southerners to use The War as an excuse to avoid remedying their shortcomings. But for our purposes, what he had to say about the American majority is more pertinent. The éclat of having “saved the Union” and freed the slaves had left Northerners with “a Treasury of Virtue.” This is a kind of plenary indulgence that automatically pre-justifies the motives of American violence and the goodness inherent in America’s acts to force the world into conformity with its ideal version of itself. Decide for yourself the degree of truth in Warren’s observation as it applies to the current American posture in the world.


The Treasury of Virtue renders Americans immune to a simple truth. The War was a war of conquest. It was not a righteous crusade or a family spat. Government of the people would not have suffered if a war of coercion had not been launched against the Southern people. The opposite is true. The purpose of the war was fundamentally to protect the prosperity of the ruling elements of the Northern states by keeping the South captive as a market and a source of raw materials and exports. The primary result of the Republican party victory was permanent installment of Hamilton’s blessings—a national debt, a protected market for industrialists, and a collusion between bankers and politicians.

https://civilwartalk.com/threads/discuss-the-treasury-of-counterfeit-virtue.141742/#post-1721806

Would you say the same for “Lost Cause” commentary by post- 1960s revisionists?
 

WJC

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You may consider them to be trivial but they were important enough to the southern states to include in their secession documents.
Thanks for your response.
In putting together a civil suit, it is not uncommon to add every conceivable affront to the list of complaints, in hopes that if one does not convince the judge another will.
In many ways, that was what the Declarations of Causes did. These documents seem in many ways the product of a 'brainstorming session' where the facilitator asks the group to suggest items to add to the chalkboard list: "Don't be judgemental, let's just list everything you can come up with".
Mississippi's document is my favorite 'catch all'. It lists 22 grievances, 14 of which are related to slavery!
 

CSA Today

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How did they define it?

There has been definition enough here by your side on this forum, but I would admit since they rarely give their sources where they obtain it is questionable. It seems, in their minds, any defense of Southern Heritage or resistance to Yankee interpretation of Southern/Confederate history for them is deemed “ inaccurate history.”
 

WJC

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There has been definition enough here by your side on this forum, but I would admit since they rarely give their sources where they obtain it is questionable. It seems, in their minds, any defense of Southern Heritage or resistance to Yankee interpretation of Southern/Confederate history for them is deemed “ inaccurate history.”
thanks for your response.
My "side"?
 

uaskme

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Thanks for your response.
I don't recall claiming that every State seceded because of slavery. What I said was "the most important factor- the Root Cause of secession- was slavery." But one can certainly show by analysis that the root cause for secession of even, say, Virginia was slavery:
1. Q: Why did Virginia secede? A: She was concerned about an 'invasion' by the U. S. Army.
2. Q: Why was there a possibility of a U. S. Army' invasion'? A: The U. S. Army was intent on putting down the rebellion of states that claimed to have seceded.
3. Q: What was the cause of the rebellion? A: Secession and seizure of U. S. property by the States of the Deep South.
4. Q: What caused the secession of the Deep South states? A: Slavery.

Nice example of the Single Causer Logic and the Single Cause Fallacy. All you look for is Slavery. So you reduce your analogy to what you want it to be, and disregard all others.
 

demiurge

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There has been definition enough here by your side on this forum, but I would admit since they rarely give their sources where they obtain it is questionable. It seems, in their minds, any defense of Southern Heritage or resistance to Yankee interpretation of Southern/Confederate history for them is deemed “ inaccurate history.”

Just the inaccurate parts.

When the writings and speeches of the men themselves refute your view of history, you'd think you'd 'honor' your ancestors by recognizing their words.

But then, that's not what the Lost Cause is about, is it?
 

WJC

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Nice example of the Single Causer Logic and the Single Cause Fallacy. All you look for is Slavery. So you reduce your analogy to what you want it to be, and disregard all others.
Thanks for your response.
No, it is an example of Root Cause Analysis, a technique of narrowing the number of possible factors to those having the greatest effect on the outcome of interest so that they can be better understood. Ideally, as here, the analysis points to a single Root Cause.
You may be unfamiliar with the technique, but you've encountered it frequently and probably unknowingly used it yourself.
 

Potomac Pride

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Thanks for your response.
In putting together a civil suit, it is not uncommon to add every conceivable affront to the list of complaints, in hopes that if one does not convince the judge another will.
In many ways, that was what the Declarations of Causes did. These documents seem in many ways the product of a 'brainstorming session' where the facilitator asks the group to suggest items to add to the chalkboard list: "Don't be judgemental, let's just list everything you can come up with".
Mississippi's document is my favorite

That is an interesting analysis, Civil Suit and Civil War. However, your root cause analysis seems a bit oversimplistic.
 

Viper21

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Just the inaccurate parts.

When the writings and speeches of the men themselves refute your view of history, you'd think you'd 'honor' your ancestors by recognizing their words.

But then, that's not what the Lost Cause is about, is it?
Except when those words refute YOUR view of history. Once again, it seems we are only to, "recognize their words" when it agrees with ones narrative.

That seems to be exactly what the Yankee Narrative is about....
 

WJC

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That is an interesting analysis, Civil Suit and Civil War. However, your root cause analysis seems a bit oversimplistic.
Thanks for your response and pointing out the unintended "Civil" connection: never occurred to me. ( I was too occupied trying to find out what team I'm on).
Do you question the result of the analysis because of an error in the process or because it didn't give the result you wanted?
 

WJC

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Except when those words refute YOUR view of history. Once again, it seems we are only to, "recognize their words" when it agrees with ones narrative.

That seems to be exactly what the Yankee Narrative is about....
Do you deny what the leaders of the southern states in 1860/61, the founders of the so-called 'Confederate States' said at the time? they were clear- and proud of their position. We may be embarrassed about it today, but they weren't- at least not until they lost and had to come up with excuses to justify their terrible decisions.
 

GwilymT

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Nice example of the Single Causer Logic and the Single Cause Fallacy. All you look for is Slavery. So you reduce your analogy to what you want it to be, and disregard all others.

Please inform us of a cause of the sectional division that led to our Civil War that does not have its root in slavery.

If slavery was only one of many causes, then the others, entirely independent of slavery must be sufficient to cause secession and war. What are they?
 
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