Abbeville Institute on Black Confederates

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Sorry, I'm in the money camp and the dire effects of secession on the Northern economy as the cause of the war.

Odd, as I am with the first part of your sentence about the money camp, but more of the effect of losing 4 BILLION dollars worth of human property on the Southern, slaveholding, economy.

During Secession Winter (Dec 1860-March 1861) they were losing millions daily.

Were they? How were they losing "millions daily?"


The only thing that could remedy that was a war to "restore the Union and the Constitution."

Until I know your reasoning and sources for this view, no dice.

The number of BCs had nothing to do with that.

Agreed.

Unionblue
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
You know, I plan to be at Bentonville next year, too, as part of the federal adjunct battalion doing the march. Maybe you could introduce me to your friend and all three of us could have a friendly chat.
You know Mike, I'd like that actually.
I often wondered how a face-to-face meeting with both of us would go. I rarely get to meet anyone I know online in person -- mostly the VA Flaggers, Teresa Roane, HK Edgerton, or various NC and VA Division SCV and UDC people in Lexington once a year, if that, or at various memorial services. While I like travel, large crowds are not usually my thing -- although I get through reenactments well enough for the few hours I am there.
God willing I should be able to go. Never actually been to that particular reenactment before. For that matter, never really been near Bentonville, so getting to visit the area is something I am looking forward to. Kinda have to hope it all works out, I'm not even certain I can make it to Lexington VA in January for Lee-Jackson Day 2020 this time around -- its either there or Cowpens for the anniversary of the Rev War battle there around the same time and I'm still making my mind up on that one depending on the dates.
All the same if I can't make it I will try to get Brian to introduce himself to you and y'all can have a chat about farbs or whatever else it is you reenactor folks talk shop about.
If it doesn't work out, I am planning a trip to the Western battlefields next summer (Chickamauga, Lookout Mountain and Franklin -- as well as my great-great grandfather's grave) and maybe we can meet there? Once again if all goes according to plan -- which in my experience rarely happens the older you get. Just look for the guy in the Hawaiian shirt.
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
I feel the same way when I see heritage sites claiming black slaves fought for the Confederacy to the tune of anywhere from sixty to a hundred thousand men.

Unionblue
I agree the number is far too credible to believe. The realistic number would be about closer to the number of black men who fought in the Continental forces in the American Revolutionary War, but probably not much about it in terms of men who actually picked up a weapon, or beat a drum.

This is probably the most realistic in terms of the actual number, one or two guys in a regiment.

Charge At Chancellorsville.jpg
 

19thGeorgia

1st Lieutenant
Joined
Apr 4, 2017
I agree the number is far too credible to believe. The realistic number would be about closer to the number of black men who fought in the Continental forces in the American Revolutionary War, but probably not much about it in terms of men who actually picked up a weapon, or beat a drum.

This is probably the most realistic in terms of the actual number, one or two guys in a regiment.

View attachment 337393
"one or two guys in a regiment"

There were about 200 Confederate regiments at Gettysburg. After a while its starts to add up.
There was probably a regiment's worth (200-300/mid-war size) of free blacks and slaves that fought on the Confederate side in every major battle.

Murfreesboro.jpg


MurfreesboroCover.jpg
 
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Location
Arlington, Virginia
I agree the number is far too credible to believe. The realistic number would be about closer to the number of black men who fought in the Continental forces in the American Revolutionary War, but probably not much about it in terms of men who actually picked up a weapon, or beat a drum.

This is probably the most realistic in terms of the actual number, one or two guys in a regiment.

View attachment 337393
Contemporary artwork based on modern reenactors doesn't really count as a source -- I mean, not only have I et some of those guys, but you sure haven't shown much imagination in looking for that picture. Kevin Levin got there first: http://cwmemory.com/2011/09/28/at-the-heart-of-the-black-confederate-narrative/ :smile:
 

AshleyMel

Sergeant Major
Joined
Oct 26, 2016
I rarely get to meet anyone I know online in person -- mostly the VA Flaggers, Teresa Roane, HK Edgerton, or various NC and VA Division SCV and UDC people in Lexington once a year, if that, or at various memorial services.
Teresa Roan was at our Division UDC Convention this year and she is such a wonderful, sweet and kind lady. I also earlier met H.K at a SCV convention.
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
Contemporary artwork based on modern reenactors doesn't really count as a source -- I mean, not only have I et some of those guys, but you sure haven't shown much imagination in looking for that picture. Kevin Levin got there first: http://cwmemory.com/2011/09/28/at-the-heart-of-the-black-confederate-narrative/ :smile:
Oh I don't know, the 58,639 people (so far) who have viewed my article since it was published in April seem to disagree with the "lack of imagination" suggestion. :wink:
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
Teresa Roan was at our Division UDC Convention this year and she is such a wonderful, sweet and kind lady. I also earlier met H.K at a SCV convention.
Miss Teresa is a wonderful Southern lady, to be sure -- and very good at what she does. I know I call myself "The Man Deniers Fear the Most" though that is mostly just to be funny -- mostly :wink:. Miss Teresa on the other hand IS someone these folks don't tangle with, and for good reason. She can debate you under the table. I know, I've seen her do it. She's one of those old school Southern ladies who can smile at you and you just know you don't pick a fight with. She reminds me a lot of my grandma, God rest her soul!
Oh and she's also the woman with a thousand impeccable hats, and looks fabulous wearing them all. :smile:

26906973_551306165235500_2463655353207946429_n.jpg
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
I always find these claims amusing as well, as I've hardly seen any....... mainly just see it here.

I mainly only hear these claims from one forum member, who introduced the claim again in this thread as he almost always does, and am still waiting for his sources or documentation.....

It does seem curious when one seems to find more instances of people trying to discredit a claim, then there is of the claim itself........…its simply a talking point some seem to wish introduce to every thread at this point, as the claim itself seldom is...………..

But that seems to be a well established tactic of a few, they will post in a thread as if they are discrediting something in the thread.......yet one can scroll back and it was never said at all.......its just a disingenuous way to introduce something, without them apparently wanting to own it themselves........either they are just chasing phantoms that arent even there........ or they are a group I'm coming to see as closet neo-confederates, they wish to introduce the neo confederate views themselves, while trying to pretend they arent.

If you haven't seen the claim of sixty to a hundred thousand black confederates fighting to keep themselves and their fellow slaves in slavery on certain SCV websites and blogs, you're not really looking.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
If you haven't seen the claim of sixty to a hundred thousand black confederates fighting to keep themselves and their fellow slaves in slavery on certain SCV websites and blogs, you're not really looking.
Honestly I dont visit SCV websites and blogs that often.....as I'm not a member, and heritage sites are usually about researching heritage, or members heritages, and not general history discussions of battles or the war

If your a SCV member, great for you I guess......I was one for year, if it had been more history based like a CW round table I probably still would be, but it was very genealogy and individual heritage based, seemed very dry to me.
 
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unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
Honestly I dont visit SCV websites and blogs that often.....as I'm not a member, and heritage sites are usually about researching heritage, or members heritages, and not general history discussions of battles or the war

If your a SCV member, great for you I guess......I was one for year, if it had been more history based like a CW round table I probably still would be, but it was very genealogy and individual heritage based, seemed very dry to me.

@archieclement ,

I was invited to apply for SCV membership, as I have four direct Confederate ancestors, but I could not go along with the motto/mission statement of the SCV, so I declined.

When the topic of black confederate soldiers first came up on this forum, years ago, and that claims were being made by SCV camps, I did a little research and searching on the internet and found such numbers as I have mentioned being put forth by various SCV camps.

Like I said, it ain't that hard to find such claims if you only look for it.

Unionblue
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
@archieclement ,

I was invited to apply for SCV membership, as I have four direct Confederate ancestors, but I could not go along with the motto/mission statement of the SCV, so I declined.

When the topic of black confederate soldiers first came up on this forum, years ago, and that claims were being made by SCV camps, I did a little research and searching on the internet and found such numbers as I have mentioned being put forth by various SCV camps.

Like I said, it ain't that hard to find such claims if you only look for it.

Unionblue
So you actively seek sources that support large numbers of large Black Confederates..........OK, Again more power to you if thats your thing...

I have noted many times I dont believe the numbers were large.....So I dont spend alot of time looking for claims that I dont believe. Would seem a bit a waste of time to me, so frankly I dont spend time looking for sites claiming "tens of thousands" or those claiming it was a myth or didnt exist at all, as either would seem a total waste of time to me. As the myth or didn't exist at all is disproven, and the "tens of thousands" unsupportable, though I still wait for Lefty to prove support for his claim..........perhaps he will yet provide undeniable evidence......I await to see.........

As you seem to still go out of your way to visit SCV sites, I'd suggest go ahead and joining, mabye it'll be your thing, mabye not as in my case..........I would assume all chapters arent the same. The one I belonged to was far more genealogy then history, I thought it would be more local history then it was, so was personally disappointed.
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
So you actively seek sources that support large numbers of large Black Confederates..........OK, Again more power to you if thats your thing...

I did at one time, only to prove the point that such claims were being made. I wanted to be fair in my reporting of such.


I have noted many times I dont believe the numbers were large.....So I dont spend alot of time looking for claims that I dont believe. Would seem a bit a waste of time to me, so frankly I dont spend time looking for sites claiming "tens of thousands" or those claiming it was a myth or didnt exist at all, as either would seem a total waste of time to me. As the myth or didn't exist at all is disproven, and the "tens of thousands" unsupportable,

So belief trumps benefit of the doubt?

though I still wait for Lefty to prove support for his claim..........perhaps he will yet provide undeniable evidence......I await to see.........

You and Lefty are you and Lefty.

As you seem to still go out of your way to visit SCV sites,

Only when fact-checking which is not "out of the way" in my opinion.

I'd suggest go ahead and joining, mabye it'll be your thing, mabye not as in my case..........

Not a suggestion that I would take because of my stated reason.

I would assume all chapters arent the same.

You would be correct in that assumption.

The one I belonged to was far more genealogy then history, I thought it would be more local history then it was, so was personally disappointed.

Too bad. Maybe you would have better luck if you searched for other SCV camps more in line with your interests.

Unionblue
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
So you actively seek sources that support large numbers of large Black Confederates..........OK, Again more power to you if thats your thing...

I have noted many times I dont believe the numbers were large.....So I dont spend alot of time looking for claims that I dont believe. Would seem a bit a waste of time to me, so frankly I dont spend time looking for sites claiming "tens of thousands" or those claiming it was a myth or didnt exist at all, as either would seem a total waste of time to me. As the myth or didn't exist at all is disproven, and the "tens of thousands" unsupportable, though I still wait for Lefty to prove support for his claim..........perhaps he will yet provide undeniable evidence......I await to see.........

As you seem to still go out of your way to visit SCV sites, I'd suggest go ahead and joining, mabye it'll be your thing, mabye not as in my case..........I would assume all chapters arent the same. The one I belonged to was far more genealogy then history, I thought it would be more local history then it was, so was personally disappointed.
I joined the SCV in 2001 after kinda watching and helping them with project for a few years prior. I had the honor of helping them lay down headstones and repair grave sites. One project I was proud to take part in was the clean up of graves belonging to USCT soldiers -- which hadn't been cleaned in what looked to be about 40 years, or so. We even helped clear out a cemetery plot that included several Rev War people and former slaves -- the photos can be found on my blog.
Because I had been independently cleaning and looking after some local graves, when I became a member I was enrolled in what they call the Guardian Program -- a member who takes it upon himself to maintain grave sites and put flags down on holidays (wreaths on Christmas also!).
I am honored to help them and to be a now 18 year member.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
I joined the SCV in 2001 after kinda watching and helping them with project for a few years prior. I had the honor of helping them lay down headstones and repair grave sites. One project I was proud to take part in was the clean up of graves belonging to USCT soldiers -- which hadn't been cleaned in what looked to be about 40 years, or so. We even helped clear out a cemetery plot that included several Rev War people and former slaves -- the photos can be found on my blog.
Because I had been independently cleaning and looking after some local graves, when I became a member I was enrolled in what they call the Guardian Program -- a member who takes it upon himself to maintain grave sites and put flags down on holidays (wreaths on Christmas also!).
I am honored to help them and to be a now 18 year member.
The one I belonged had no speakers or presentations, they did the cemetery thing but was mainly a few who wanted to everything. It didn't last long, think the chapter went under.

Perhaps your in area with multiple choices unionblue, there was only one less then a HR drive here, and it went under as it didn't do much
 

unionblue

Brev. Brig. Gen'l
Member of the Year
Joined
Feb 20, 2005
Location
Ocala, FL (as of December, 2015).
The one I belonged had no speakers or presentations, they did the cemetery thing but was mainly a few who wanted to everything. It didn't last long, think the chapter went under.

Perhaps your in area with multiple choices unionblue, there was only one less then a HR drive here, and it went under as it didn't do much

I searched the internet and did not restrict myself to one state or local area.

The claim of sixty to a hundred thousand black confederate soldiers is not restricted to those SCV camps that "went under."
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Location
mo
I searched the internet and did not restrict myself to one state or local area.

The claim of sixty to a hundred thousand black confederate soldiers is not restricted to those SCV camps that "went under."
Noted that the SCV is your go to source for you to seek. I already noted it's not mine, nor do I share your interest in SCV sites, but whatever floats your boat.

But I don't actively seek what I don't think is true, would seem a bit counter productive
 

Andersonh1

Brigadier General
Moderator
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Location
South Carolina
I searched the internet and did not restrict myself to one state or local area.

The claim of sixty to a hundred thousand black confederate soldiers is not restricted to those SCV camps that "went under."

Looking at the SCV's main page, they make the following claim when it comes to numbers:

It has been estimated that over 65,000 Southern blacks were in the Confederate ranks. Over 13,000 of these, “saw the elephant” also known as meeting the enemy in combat. These Black Confederates included both slave and free. The Confederate Congress did not approve blacks to be officially enlisted as soldiers (except as musicians), until late in the war. But in the ranks it was a different story.​

https://scv.org/contributed-works/black-confederates/
 

C.W. Roden

Formerly: SouthernFriedOtaku
Joined
Dec 3, 2019
Location
South Carolina, USA, Earth
Here's my estimate...
Enlisted
Blacks in "white" units (1861-65) - 3,000
Militia (1861-62) - 2,000
Act of February 17, 1864 - 4,000-5,000
Act of March 13, 1865 - 500+

Non-Enlisted
Servants and Laborers (1861-65) - 50,000+
Those are a bit closer to the actual truth. Thank you sir!
 
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