A Primer on Civil War Pocket Watches

I removed the movement this morning and will be taking it to someone whom I hope can give me an accurate assessment on the gold context tomorrow. What are the odds it is not gold? I thought the "eagle" mark pretty much proves it is gold?
 
The odds are that it is solid gold. Gold filling was quite rare in that period, and gold plating would not have held up. It is primarily the purity of the gold that is in question. Even some cases from that period that are marked "18K" test as low as 16K. You didn't show the exterior case surfaces, but if they show significant wear, as the great majority of surviving cases of that age do, then a gold filled case would show brass. So if your case is worn and it shows no brass, then you've got a solid gold case.
 
I just posted this on NAWCC pocket watch Association maybe one of you Civil War buffs can help us out with
Tobias Watches history:
around 1728 Mr. Morris Tobias started his watchmaking business in East London. He was one of the most esteemed watch makers in London. He was notorious for sharing his expertise with many other local watch makers without expecting any favors in return. During this period his pieces were highly sought after by the London high society, since Mr. Morris Tobias was more interested in producing these high grade pocket watch and wasn’t too money ambitious he remained a low volume producer until other family members like his nephew Michael Isaac Tobias stepped in the business with more commercial intentions. As the business flourished with a relative poor business administration the Tobia brand-name was poorly managed and documented hence all the confusion with M.I Tobias & Co or MJ. Tobias (Switzerland / England). What’s really fascinating and not covered by the civil war buffs is the fact that Tobia had marketed their watches very successful to the Union and confederate soldiers with many patriotic hunter casing engravings but mostly sought after were the watches that the appointed artist painted on the reverse side of glass. These artist miniature paintings are extraordinarily detailed civil war scenes that must have been painted by some of the best artist talents of those times. Very little is known who and were these reverse painted watches were painted and why they were so sought after by high ranking civil war soldiers. These artist depictured many civil war scenes, like civil war nurses surrounded by soldiers, nurse scenes were thought to protect the soldiers against injury during battle. Many other scenes were common especially battle scenes, self-portraits of the rich and famous. After the war the watch art took various forms from the early America and the old West.


I would like to find out more about the artist that painted these reverse glass paintings. I was told that one of the painters was Winslow Homer (1836-1910) who is regarded by many as one of the greatest American civil war painter, he apparently painted these images on the dials when he was send to the front in Virginia as an artist-correspondent. We are looking for some hard evidence to support this, in addition I would like to know which other artist of the time painted these dials to get a better understanding of the history behind these reverse painted glass dials. Any additional photo’s, and info would be welcome.


I enclosed some pictures of Tobia reverse glass painted civil war scene pocket watches that we have in our collection.
 

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I just posted this on NAWCC pocket watch Association maybe one of you Civil War buffs can help us out with
Tobias Watches history:
around 1728 Mr. Morris Tobias started his watchmaking business in East London. He was one of the most esteemed watch makers in London. He was notorious for sharing his expertise with many other local watch makers without expecting any favors in return. During this period his pieces were highly sought after by the London high society, since Mr. Morris Tobias was more interested in producing these high grade pocket watch and wasn’t too money ambitious he remained a low volume producer until other family members like his nephew Michael Isaac Tobias stepped in the business with more commercial intentions. As the business flourished with a relative poor business administration the Tobia brand-name was poorly managed and documented hence all the confusion with M.I Tobias & Co or MJ. Tobias (Switzerland / England). What’s really fascinating and not covered by the civil war buffs is the fact that Tobia had marketed their watches very successful to the Union and confederate soldiers with many patriotic hunter casing engravings but mostly sought after were the watches that the appointed artist painted on the reverse side of glass. These artist miniature paintings are extraordinarily detailed civil war scenes that must have been painted by some of the best artist talents of those times. Very little is known who and were these reverse painted watches were painted and why they were so sought after by high ranking civil war soldiers. These artist depictured many civil war scenes, like civil war nurses surrounded by soldiers, nurse scenes were thought to protect the soldiers against injury during battle. Many other scenes were common especially battle scenes, self-portraits of the rich and famous. After the war the watch art took various forms from the early America and the old West.


I would like to find out more about the artist that painted these reverse glass paintings. I was told that one of the painters was Winslow Homer (1836-1910) who is regarded by many as one of the greatest American civil war painter, he apparently painted these images on the dials when he was send to the front in Virginia as an artist-correspondent. We are looking for some hard evidence to support this, in addition I would like to know which other artist of the time painted these dials to get a better understanding of the history behind these reverse painted glass dials. Any additional photo’s, and info would be welcome.


I enclosed some pictures of Tobia reverse glass painted civil war scene pocket watches that we have in our collection.
Some more Photos:
 

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I am on vacation right now, so it is hard to respond as fully and completely as I would like using my I-phone. However, here are a couple of points to consider:

1. The Tobias name was very widely counterfeited by Swiss exporters. Complicating the matter still further is that the various Tobiases themselves turned out a lot of cheap export watches. You will notice, for example, that many of the watches you showed are in inferior quality, low purity silver cases with silver plated brass, or even just plain brass, dust covers. The movement finishes are similarly uninspiring. Swiss imports like that were near the bottom of the market in 1860. (Only verge watches in brass cases were cheaper.)

2. 1860 was a world in which both engraving and hand painting skills were cheap and plentiful. Quality dial work was all done before the porcelain enamel dials were fired. Painted dials like the ones you show were the 1860's equivalent of "starving artist" paintings that were used to make cheap imported watches more attractive to patriotic Americans. (Given the decentralized "cottage" nature of the Swiss watch making industry at that time, these dials very likely were painted by talented women, working in their own homes, at extremely low piecework wages.) That sales strategy wouldn't have made any sense for an otherwise inexpensive watch unless the dial painting added little to the overall cost. High quality watches almost never had such embellishments.

A question for you: You referred to "our collection." Who is "our?" Are you a business?

Clint Geller, Fellow NAWCC
 
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I'll opine that I think the paintings are very nicely done but I didn't see any that reminded me of Winslow Homer's work. This claim is probably just a more recent attempt to create and maintain a high level of desirability in what @CW Watch Collector points out are likely marginal specimens.
 
Thank you all for your replies: I thought this might be of interested to all you civil war buffs, the post around the Tobias civil war reverse painted pocket watches is in full swing on the NAWCC ( american watch association). There debate is more about the Post-Mr Morris Tobia era pocket watches issue but the real interest is the fact that these reverse painted civil war scenes were painted during the civil war that's what makes these pieces interesting and extremely collectible no mater which firm manufactured the pocket watch.

Below my reply to the pocket watch buffs on the NAWCC forum:

I apologies for my late reply I just returned back from vacation and thank you all for your replies about this ongoing HOT topic around the Tobias watches, authentic or not!

First of all I am a private collector, never sold an antique item in my life !!
All these dials are reverse painted and certainly not transfer printed, I am certain of this as my profession happens to be in the printing industry for the past 27 years, I may call myself a printing expert. In addition, I am a serious collector of antique paintings which got me interested in these reverse painted Tobia watches in the first place.
Lloydb- you are correct some of these dials have identical themes, but all are individually painted with many difference between them. These descriptions of nurses amongst civil war soldiers must have been a hot theme hence the higher number of them in circulation.


On the subject of real or fake Tobias, the question shouldn’t be if they are fake or authentic but which Tobia generation sold them the founder MR. Morris Tobias or his Nephew Michael Isaac Tobias and or the other second generation family members. It’s like saying the only authentic Hershey chocolates are the once produced when Mr. Milton S. Hershey was running the company. The chocolate formula has changed over time as Hershey Inc became more commercialized as the Tobia watches have. Aren’t the Hershey chocolates made in Switzerland today still Hershey chocolates? Or the Ford cars make in Europe aren’t they still Ford automobiles, you can say a Model T is from the Mr Ford period but it’s still a Ford. I find the Tobia discussion an endless discussion, authentic or not, Tobias are all the real deal like a 2016 ford or the Ford model T. Perhaps it should be phrased, is it a Morris Tobia era or later.


I will take some more detailed pictures of the reverse painted pocket watches and post them shortly.


PS- I agree some of my collection Tobia watches are post-Mr. Morris Tobia era but right in line for the civil war period.

PSS- As antique private art collector it amazes me the emphases put into the watch maker, Civil war period paintings depicting civil war sense are very sought after, no matter the size.
 
Hello James, you are correct I just had a former Christie's art appraiser look at the reverse painted pocket watches he confirmed your finding that Mr Winslow Homer's has in no way been involved in painting pocket watches. Interestingly enough he did mention that many artist during the civil war time were trying to make a living painting many odd items like watches, Most of these paintings are to small to authenticate them to a particular painter. Interestingly enough since we know when these pocket watches were produced we know they were painted during the civil war period, the question remains by who and were.

Perhaps Mr. Geller is correct that we will never really know who painted which dials.
 
I finally just went and looked at the NAWCC European Pocket Watches forum to find the particular Tobias thread (one of many on Tobias) discussing these painted dial watches. I usually monitor the American Pocket Watches forum, so I missed that thread. However, all of the folks posting there are people whom I know. It is no coincidence that they all independently came to the same conclusion that I did concerning the watches that have been shown here: they are indifferent quality, cheaply made Lepine Caliber Swiss fakes with very similar dial painting subjects.

I have been monitoring the market for named Civil War watches for some time now and I have NEVER seen a watch with an actual authentic looking Civil War provenance that looks anything remotely like the painted dial watches shown on this thread. How strange, especially since they were allegedly so "popular" in their time, and are so "sought after" today. Not even the Kurtz Collection of Civil War artifacts, which was auctioned at Heritage and which included at least half a dozen named watches, included even one painted dial watch. How very, very strange indeed. It's almost as if some party in the recent past got hold of some fake Swiss Tobias watches cheap and decided to "improve" them. Were they all acquired from the same source?

Winslow Homer indeed!
 
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One more thing: I have been collecting pocket watches for over 30 years and I have never seen a pocket watch from the Civil War period, whether named or otherwise, that had a dial with a transparent glass center, much less a reverse painted one. These are not authentic Civil War artifacts, period. Reverse glass painting, if indeed that is how those dials were made, was an embellishment method used on clock cases, not on watch movements.
 
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I have just created a new thread on this forum with links, kindly provided by Mr. Mike Kendra, to a slide presentation I gave at the NAWCC Regional meeting in Lexington, KY last January. It is entitled, "Collecting Civil War Watches." Interested readers may wish to read the OP here first, since this was a live presentation where I was present to speak to the slides. Several regular contributors to the American Civil War Forums have assisted my research for this presentation.

One may notice that a slide is shown of one watch dial with an image appearing on it, that of Union Major General Franz Sigel, who was very popular among his German-American recruits. However, while the Swiss watch to which it is attached is of the same inexpensive grade and indifferent quality as we have been discussing, the dial is of very conventional construction. It has no clear glass center. Sigel's image on the dial may have improved the watch's salability, but I doubt it added much to the price.

Here is the link:

http://civilwartalk.com/threads/slide-presentation-on-collecting-civil-war-watches.126567/
 
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Hello Geller, I respectfully disagree with your opinion as a civil war collector for the past 30 years.
You might wont to check the Collector encyclopedia of pendant and Pocket watches 1500-1950 by Jeanenne Bell on page 194 you will see the description of a REVERSE painted Tobia watch that came out of Dan Doloff private collection. In the description they mention Civil War painted pocket watches. I am not sure what makes you the expert on this matter and making ungrounded assertions that these watches didn't exist and claiming they aren't authentic just because you don't have them in your collection.
The reason you might not have these in your collection is the fact that they are not only highly sought after pocket watch collectors but art collectors as well. It took me 15 years to find these highly detailed reverse painted watches five of them I purchased together with a civil war painting from one of the most private and largest private civil war art collectors many years ago.

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I am familiar with the individual you mentioned in your last post, and suffice it to say that dropping his name lends your argument no extra credibility. You will also notice that the figure caption you show above reads, "Circa 1870 - 1880s." This difference in period is significant because, among other reasons, double sunk dials, as is the one shown in the caption, were extremely rare on American watches pre-1865, and even more so on foreign watches. As my opening post points out:

"Watch Dials and Hands: Authentic watch dials of the CW period were oven fired, hand painted ceramic with copper backings. They were nearly all either flat, or "single sunk," meaning that the seconds bit was a separate disk that was cemented slightly below the plane of the main dial. (The only double sunk dials of the period appear on a small number of the highest grade Waltham Model 1859 movements, as per the discussion below.) ..."

I know of no knowledgeable horologist, and I know many, who would disagree with the above statement. Since you questioned my expertise, allow me to say in my defense that I have walked countless showrooms and perused innumerable auction catalogs filled with watches from the Civil War period, I have written a well-received book and several research articles on watches of that general period, and I have curated two significant exhibits and chaired two NAWCC National Seminars on the general subject. I also received the NAWCC's James W. Gibbs Award (one of only twenty of which have been awarded in thirty years) for outstanding literary contributions to horology. Dan who?

What the great majority of "art collectors," even those who may collect art with Civil War themes, knows about Civil War pocket watches is about what the general public knows about Civil War pocket watches, which is to say they know almost nothing. If you can show me one reverse painted dial watch with a credible CW provenance, I might revise my opinion.

As for the source of the image and caption you posted, here is the first of several reviews of that book listed on Amazon.com:

"Here's an example of a book that should never have been produced. The author is obviously misinformed and quite frankly, ignorant, regarding watches. The book is riddled with incorrect information regarding watch descriptions, including blatantly wrong jewel counts, movement descriptions, and the repetitious "very fine and rare", "fine and lovely", "very fine and very rare", ad nauseum. The author constantly includes "micrometric regulator" in descriptions of pocket watches, that have NO micrometric regulators! The book is attractive, and has some excellent photographs, but, at best, this is a book that needed an author with some watch "smarts"."

23 people found that review helpful.
 
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I would like to thank you and you very much for the descriptions you gave in my spare time I like to go to antique stores and it's nice to learn something that if I have the opportunity I now know what to look for some thank you very much.
 
Digging up the past a little bit. This watch came out of downstate Illinois, and I just wanted to get some opinions on it. The American Watch Company pocket watch is serial number 39,375, with the mechanics marked for WM Ellery and Boston, MASS. The case has 8 30 22 on the inside, and DUEBER SILVERINE.

I have not been able to find a similar model with the cannon etching at the moment, so perhaps it was done by a friend or a skilled craftsman. I'm not sure if it works -it doesn't appear to be, and I don't have the mechanical know-how to mess with it, so I won't.

Opinions, good, and bad, are welcomed. Thank you.
 
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Mr. Krausz, According to the American Watch Company's watch movement production records, the movement of your watch was completed in October of 1860. The "William Ellery" Grade, with seven jewels, uncompensated steel balance and no temperature or positional adjustments was a relatively inexpensive mass produced grade that was marketed to, and which was very popular among Union soldiers. (I say your watch was "relatively inexpensive," because all watches were expensive at that time, and all American watches were better made than the least expensive foreign imports.) But this is the good news.

Now for the bad news. "Silverine" cases, referring to cases made of a nickel alloy that contained no silver, are all post-civil war. Furthermore, while the Dueber Watch Case Company began making gold and silver cases some time in the 1860s, I have never seen a Dueber case of any composition that I thought was contemporary with the Civil War. You may also notice that the watch movement has no case screw. In and of itself, a missing case screw does not necessarily mean that the movement is not original to its case. However, case screws leave very distinctive and easily recognizable marks at their points of contact with a case. You will notice that there appears to be no case screw mark on the case adjacent to the empty hole along the edge of the movement where the case screw should be! This tells me that this particular movement found this particular case after the case screw had been either lost or discarded. While the one movement picture available is blurry, there appear to be two marks on the rim of the case almost 180 degrees away from the empty case screw hole in the movement, one or both of which may well be case screw marks. The fairly definite conclusion one can draw from these facts is that the current case is not the first one to have housed this movement, and the movement is not the first to have been in this case.

The engraving on the dust cover, purportedly identifying the original owner, does not look to be professionally done. The engraving on the front lid might or might not have been. Given what else we know about this watch, the most favorable possible interpretation of the dust cover inscription is that it was done by the owner himself on this post-war case some time after the war, as a proud testimony to his prior service. But if so, there was a different movement in the case at the time he engraved it. I'd guess that the first watch movement to have been in that case more than likely was made by the Elgin National Watch Co. of Elgin Illinois some time after 1867 (when Elgin started making watches).

Given that the most potentially historically significant part of this watch is the case, which bears the inscription, and that the authenticity (and the date) of both the case and the inscription to the CW participant are in question, I would pass on this watch.
 
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Good googley moogley. My wife picked it up for me as a birthday present, since I had bid on a few 1870-1880 watches and lost those bids. She was up looking at lace one morning and noticed the watch, with no information available, other than the Hunting case and key. When the watch arrived, she had to go back to the seller for the key, which he failed to include, which took about a month to get. No idea why the seller had no information on the watch as American Watch Company NY is clear as day when you open the back of the case.

This thread prompted me to find a watch repairman, locally. Found an old guy (Lori said he might have assembled the watch originally) less than a mile from my house. Now I might be afraid to tote it around to reenactments.

I was just looking over this old thread, and noticed an incongruency in your watch description. The AWCo was in Waltham MA, not in NY. Could you post a picture of your watch, so I can confirm that what you have is really a 20 Size Waltham? If not, can you read me everything that is on both the case and the movement, most especially including the movement engraving and serial number? Note that the case and movement serial numbers are likely different.
 
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